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    The UNI/Butler Factor

    How can mid-major coaches be so effective at places like UNI and Butler, then struggle so much at Big 12 and Big 10 schools?

    For instance, I'm assuming that some of the players who are responsible for the success at UNI and Butler this year are recruits of McDermott and Likliter. Yet, they don't seem to be able to recruit the same sort of guys once they leave the mid-majors. You would think that anyone they could recruit to UNI or Butler, they could recruit to ISU or Iowa. So, why don't they do so?

    Please, let's get beyond the "McDermott sucks" responses.

    Perhaps these coaches weren't as successful at UNI and Butler as I seem to remember. Perhaps they shouldn't be given credit for the recruiting that has led to the current success at those schools. However, it seems that these guys are able to do things at mid-majors that they can't do in the Big 12 and Big 10.

    Let's unpack the mystery of the "UNI/Butler Factor."



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    recruiting...



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    I think alot of it has to do with an established system with superior players. For example, at Butler Lick's system worked well because he had recruited superior talent than those of other schools. That same system with inferior talent prove not to be effective.

    I think the same could be said for UNI. Their system seems to work, in large part because they had better players.

    In the end, like anything else, it comes down to recruiting and if you don't have the horses you can't win. When you have superior talent, a coach's system makes him look like a genius. A system without the players makes a coach appear to be desperately clinging to their style of basketball.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Cycsk View Post
    How can mid-major coaches be so effective at places like UNI and Butler, then struggle so much at Big 12 and Big 10 schools?

    For instance, I'm assuming that some of the players who are responsible for the success at UNI and Butler this year are recruits of McDermott and Likliter. Yet, they don't seem to be able to recruit the same sort of guys once they leave the mid-majors. You would think that anyone they could recruit to UNI or Butler, they could recruit to ISU or Iowa. So, why don't they do so?

    Please, let's get beyond the "McDermott sucks" responses.

    Perhaps these coaches weren't as successful at UNI and Butler as I seem to remember. Perhaps they shouldn't be given credit for the recruiting that has led to the current success at those schools. However, it seems that these guys are able to do things at mid-majors that they can't do in the Big 12 and Big 10.

    Let's unpack the mystery of the "UNI/Butler Factor."
    (a) The kids recruited to mid-majors are likely to stay around all 4 years. Many of the really good Cinderella type runs are done by senior-led squads. Get a good group of kids and you can dominate your conference for a 2-3 year period.

    (b) Good team play instead of individual play, again driven by several years of playing together and buying into the system.

    (c) Surprise factor of getting to play with maybe one day turnaround. Less time for major teams to gameplan.

    (d) Don't have to play night in and night out against BCS teams. Better record, decent seed. Get an upset or two and you are there.

    (e) Good coaching. There are quality coaches at mid-majors.

    For every Butler and UNI, there are Southern Illinois and Creightons that do it for a couple of years also.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWarning View Post
    (a) The kids recruited to mid-majors are likely to stay around all 4 years. Many of the really good Cinderella type runs are done by senior-led squads. Get a good group of kids and you can dominate your conference for a 2-3 year period.

    (b) Good team play instead of individual play, again driven by several years of playing together and buying into the system.

    (c) Surprise factor of getting to play with maybe one day turnaround. Less time for major teams to gameplan.

    (d) Don't have to play night in and night out against BCS teams. Better record, decent seed. Get an upset or two and you are there.

    (e) Good coaching. There are quality coaches at mid-majors.

    For every Butler and UNI, there are Southern Illinois and Creightons that do it for a couple of years also.
    This is pretty much spot on. Finding players that fit your system and put the team before themselves and keeping those players is huge. There are only so many John Walls and Harrison Barnes every year and those players are usually going to pick the top programs/coaches. Finding talent that fits your system and "coaching them up" for 4-5 years can lead to a run in the NCAA tourney and sucsess.


    “It’s beyond pride. It’s a restored trust. There’s a confidence again, a passion that teeters on swagger. More than anything, (Iowa State head coach Paul Rhoads) has restored the Iowa State “it” factor, the steadfast belief that it is great to be a Cyclone...the man’s enthusiasm is genuine to the core...”
    – columnist Sean Keeler, Des Moines Register

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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    (a) The kids recruited to mid-majors are likely to stay around all 4 years. Many of the really good Cinderella type runs are done by senior-led squads. Get a good group of kids and you can dominate your conference for a 2-3 year period.

    (b) Good team play instead of individual play, again driven by several years of playing together and buying into the system.

    (c) Surprise factor of getting to play with maybe one day turnaround. Less time for major teams to gameplan.

    (d) Don't have to play night in and night out against BCS teams. Better record, decent seed. Get an upset or two and you are there.

    (e) Good coaching. There are quality coaches at mid-majors.

    For every Butler and UNI, there are Southern Illinois and Creightons that do it for a couple of years also.[/QUOTE]



    Point A may be the most important. They get guys who are less likely to have NBA ambitions, but for whom college is their big ambition. If you can really work with this kind of guys for 4 years, you are likely to develop into a good "team," perhaps even good enough to win some games in March.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Cycsk View Post
    (a) The kids recruited to mid-majors are likely to stay around all 4 years. Many of the really good Cinderella type runs are done by senior-led squads. Get a good group of kids and you can dominate your conference for a 2-3 year period.

    (b) Good team play instead of individual play, again driven by several years of playing together and buying into the system.

    (c) Surprise factor of getting to play with maybe one day turnaround. Less time for major teams to gameplan.

    (d) Don't have to play night in and night out against BCS teams. Better record, decent seed. Get an upset or two and you are there.

    (e) Good coaching. There are quality coaches at mid-majors.

    For every Butler and UNI, there are Southern Illinois and Creightons that do it for a couple of years also.


    Point A may be the most important. They get guys who are less likely to have NBA ambitions, but for whom college is their big ambition. If you can really work with this kind of guys for 4 years, you are likely to develop into a good "team," perhaps even good enough to win some games in March.
    Not only that, but a lot of these guys are players that were snubbed by power conference schools or are realistic enough to know they're not talented enough to make it at a power conference school. In either case, both work their arses off, possibly a lot harder than some of those who get the power conference scholarship, in the first case because they want to stick it to the doubters, in the second case because they just have to work that hard. You get a team full of players that have a reasonable amount of talent and are willing to sell out like that and give them someone that knows how to coach the game, and success may just happen.


    Chuck Lidell: I paint my toenails with pink and black polish. Problem is, I get more paint on my toes and on the carpet than on my nails. Any advice?
    Maria Sharapova: Don't you beat up other guys for a living? I don't know how to answer this.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    Not only that, but a lot of these guys are players that were snubbed by power conference schools or are realistic enough to know they're not talented enough to make it at a power conference school. In either case, both work their arses off, possibly a lot harder than some of those who get the power conference scholarship, in the first case because they want to stick it to the doubters, in the second case because they just have to work that hard. You get a team full of players that have a reasonable amount of talent and are willing to sell out like that and give them someone that knows how to coach the game, and success may just happen.

    Sort of reminds me of a certian football team from last year that no one thought would be any good. They found a leader and completely bought into what him and his coaches were selling and suprised a lot of people. The sum of the parts was definately better that the individual pieces. Not to take anything away from the players but not many high NFL draft picks on the team but thats just it, they played as a TEAM.


    “It’s beyond pride. It’s a restored trust. There’s a confidence again, a passion that teeters on swagger. More than anything, (Iowa State head coach Paul Rhoads) has restored the Iowa State “it” factor, the steadfast belief that it is great to be a Cyclone...the man’s enthusiasm is genuine to the core...”
    – columnist Sean Keeler, Des Moines Register

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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWarning View Post
    (a) The kids recruited to mid-majors are likely to stay around all 4 years. Many of the really good Cinderella type runs are done by senior-led squads. Get a good group of kids and you can dominate your conference for a 2-3 year period.

    (b) Good team play instead of individual play, again driven by several years of playing together and buying into the system.

    (c) Surprise factor of getting to play with maybe one day turnaround. Less time for major teams to gameplan.

    (d) Don't have to play night in and night out against BCS teams. Better record, decent seed. Get an upset or two and you are there.

    (e) Good coaching. There are quality coaches at mid-majors.

    For every Butler and UNI, there are Southern Illinois and Creightons that do it for a couple of years also.
    I think the mid-majors don't get the greatest athletic players. They may tend to get the greatest role players. Stick them all on a team where they are willing -- no EAGER -- to leave behind "street ball" for something formal, and you have a chance to play -- perhaps "skill" vs. "talent"? Perhaps you can then throw in 1 guy who is talented enough for the major schools, but has "other" issues. When that guy is surrounded by guys who thrive as a team, they may be able to fit.


    But then again what do I know?


    May my postings be polite and not misunderstood. (And hopefully funny on occasion.)

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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Maybe the "UNI/Butler Factor" is like the mysterious "Ex-Cub Factor" in which the team with the most former Cub players almost always wins the World Series. The team whose coach has left for greener pastures is destined to do better than the teams the coaches went to.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Cycsk View Post
    How can mid-major coaches be so effective at places like UNI and Butler, then struggle so much at Big 12 and Big 10 schools?

    For instance, I'm assuming that some of the players who are responsible for the success at UNI and Butler this year are recruits of McDermott and Likliter. Yet, they don't seem to be able to recruit the same sort of guys once they leave the mid-majors. You would think that anyone they could recruit to UNI or Butler, they could recruit to ISU or Iowa. So, why don't they do so?

    Please, let's get beyond the "McDermott sucks" responses.

    Perhaps these coaches weren't as successful at UNI and Butler as I seem to remember. Perhaps they shouldn't be given credit for the recruiting that has led to the current success at those schools. However, it seems that these guys are able to do things at mid-majors that they can't do in the Big 12 and Big 10.

    Let's unpack the mystery of the "UNI/Butler Factor."

    Its the Boise State factor... they have the talent and coaching to win a one up situation... but when you enter a league where you play the same teams that are ten times better sometimes twice, you cant do it every week... These BCS schools dont usually see Butler during the reg season, so they arent sure whats going to happen. If Butler played in the Big 12 this year, they would have done okay, but would not be in the final 4...Same goes for UNI.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Now i think in football a team like Boise could posibly win the title next year because they play Vtech non conference and will start ranked high.... however if they had to play Texas, then OU, then TTech, then Nebraska in 4 straight weeks... no way... thats the difference... basically teams like butler, uni, etc... play a couple bowl games a year... shoot UNI looses to teams in its own conference that didnt make any tourney... why? because those teams are used to playing them.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWarning View Post
    (a) The kids recruited to mid-majors are likely to stay around all 4 years. Many of the really good Cinderella type runs are done by senior-led squads. Get a good group of kids and you can dominate your conference for a 2-3 year period.

    (b) Good team play instead of individual play, again driven by several years of playing together and buying into the system.

    (c) Surprise factor of getting to play with maybe one day turnaround. Less time for major teams to gameplan.

    (d) Don't have to play night in and night out against BCS teams. Better record, decent seed. Get an upset or two and you are there.

    (e) Good coaching. There are quality coaches at mid-majors.

    For every Butler and UNI, there are Southern Illinois and Creightons that do it for a couple of years also.
    First, how many schools are actually plagued by players leaving early for the NBA? Its not as if everyone has Kentucky like players that are coming in for 1 year. At worst, you might have to deal with a player leaving after a junior year at most places. How many players have left Iowa State after 1 or 2 years for the NBA? It doesn't happen that often.

    Second, how does the "surprise factor" work? Mid-major surprise bigger schools because they don't have time to prepare? Doesn't the mid-major have the SAME amount of time to prepare? Dumb argument.

    Lastly, are you really going to argue that mid-majors are making runs because they get good seeds? Give me a break. UNI had 28 wins and 17 RPI, and was a 9 seed. Teams like Butler, Cornell, and Temple all had great years too and were underseeded.



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclonepower View Post
    recruiting...

    I think you are right.........You Can't Play What You cant recruit!!!!


    I heard a coach say this morning that Recruiting was 70% of his job.....Interesting but probably true....


    If you cant recruit you cant stay at the BCS level....quoting Dan McCarney



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    Re: The UNI/Butler Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by 06Panther View Post
    . . .
    Second, how does the "surprise factor" work? Mid-major surprise bigger schools because they don't have time to prepare? Doesn't the mid-major have the SAME amount of time to prepare? Dumb argument. . . .
    The argument goes like this:

    I'm the entire program at Big-Name-Ranked-All-Season school "X". I have neither heard of nor watch a single game of Not-Big-Name-Maybe-Occassionally-Ranked-Never-On-National-TV school "Y". I get a couple of days to learn/prepare.

    On the other hand, the entire program at school "Y" has at worst a passing knowledge of school "X", and very likely has watched their games multiple times durring the season and is quite familiar with the Big-Name-Player(s) on the team.

    While that's clearly not the same as actually preparing for a team, it still helps. That's part of why conference play just keeps getting more difficult. I'm sure our coaches are watching the other conference teames -- at least in passing -- all season.


    Anyway -- right or wrong -- that's my opinion on how the "suprise" argument works. Note that I agree with the argument, but only to a rather small degree.


    May my postings be polite and not misunderstood. (And hopefully funny on occasion.)

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