Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad
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    Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    I posted this elsewhere, but I figured that (with a few changes) it deserved it's own thread.

    Talent? Yes. I didn't say anything about experience. Or even cohesiveness. Both of those are yet to be seen. But talent--most certainly. As I found when I looked more closely.

    Let's see. What were the prominent players? I suppose I should look beyond the top of the food chain Fizer-Tinsley matchups...

    Marcus Fizer = Craig Brackins
    Easy. It remains to be seen whether CB will match (or exceed) Marcus' junior season, but I'd say his soph season was slightly ahead of Marcus' soph season. Talentwise, equal.

    Jamaal Tinsley = Chris Colvin
    Remember, we (or I) said talent, and in the long run, Colvin might prove to be even better than Tinsley. But the talent is probably equivalent. At least. How it proves out is yet to be seen--just like Tinsley when he first signed. JT averaged 11 ppg, 6.6 apg 2.6 spg that season.

    Michael Nurse = Diante Garrett
    Yes, Diante needs to continue to step up his game, become more consistent. We don't know yet how much improvement he'll make. But the talent is probably equal. At the least. Mike averaged 12.5 ppg that year, Diante 9.8 this season. I should note that perhaps the most important aspect that Mike (and Kantrail) added to that team was a secondary ballhandler.

    Stevie Johnson < Marquis Gilstrap
    Sure, Stevie had a ton of heart, and is a great guy, always smiling. But this one isn't even close. Stevie averaged 9.1 ppg. I suspect that Marquis might better that.

    Kantrail Horton = Scott Christopherson, Lucca Staiger or Wes Eikmeier
    Just guessing who to stick here. Any one of these guys might match Kantrail's 8.7 ppg. Of course, Lucca did average 8.2 ppg this year, but that wasn't Kantrail's only contribution. Perhaps I should have slotted Garrett here. By the way, considering the comparison, it's ironic that Kantrail was key to landing Marquis.

    Paul Shirley < Jamie Vanderbeken
    Paul averaged 7.7ppg and 4.4 rpg. Anyone care to figure out Jamie's stats over the latter part of the season? Doesn't matter, because on talent, Jamie is well ahead (outside the classroom).

    Martin Rancik < Justin Hamilton
    I liked Martin, but this one isn't really close, either. And if JH can make even a moderate step up, he'll easily surpass Martin's 5.5ppg and 3.8 rpg.

    Beyond that, we're down to the likes of Brandon Hawkins, Thomas Watkins, and Richard Evans, who all averaged 3.2 ppg or less. I already have Christopherson and Eikmeier on the board as wild cards, and still have a Buckley and a Pomlee up my sleeve.

    Yes, if you wanted to evaluate the respective teams, you might shift the matchups around a little. For one thing, perhaps Tinsley should be matched against fellow juco Gilstrap. Or, if you went strictly positionally, Jamaal > DG--but then Colvin wins somewhere else, talentwise. As Gilstrap already does. I could flip some other matchups around, but I'm lazy.

    However, my point was as to the respective talent, which was the point that I made in the first place, and I'd have to say that I'm pleased to me realize that next year's team might even be slightly more talented than that '99-00 squad.

    With base talent being the argument that is being made. How everything meshes is yet to be seen. As well as the improvents of some players, and the contributions of newcomers.

    And I'll also point of that that Elite Eight team was coming off a 15-15 season the year before. I can't say what changes and maturity this team will make and embrace in the ensuing months. Or how the newcomers will fare. But it's obvious that if CB returns, the talent is equal to that '99-'00 team.

    So we'll see what happens.


    Last edited by Aclone; 03-16-2009 at 03:46 PM.


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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    Colvin != Tinsley, no way. Not even close.
    Gilstrap isn't on campus
    JVB doesn't play the same position as Shirley
    You have Horton way undervalued.

    this whole thing is a mess. Of course that team was way better.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Aclone View Post
    I posted this elsewhere, but I figured that (with a few changes) it deserved it's own thread.

    Talent? Yes. I didn't say anything about experience. Or even cohesiveness. Both of those are yet to be seen. But talent--most certainly. As I found when I looked more closely.

    Let's see. What were the prominent players? I suppose I should look beyond the top of the food chain Fizer-Tinsley matchups...

    Marcus Fizer = Craig Brackins
    Easy. It remains to be seen whether CB will match (or exceed) Marcus' junior season, but I'd say his soph season was slightly ahead of Marcus' soph season. Talentwise, equal.

    Jamaal Tinsley = Chris Colvin
    Remember, we (or I) said talent, and in the long run, Colvin might prove to be even better than Tinsley. But the talent is probably equivalent. At least. How it proves out is yet to be seen--just like Tinsley when he first signed. JT averaged 11 ppg, 6.6 apg 2.6 spg that season.

    Michael Nurse = Diante Garrett
    Yes, Diante needs to continue to step up his game, become more consistent. We don't know yet how much improvement he'll make. But the talent is probably equal. At the least. Mike averaged 12.5 ppg that year, Diante 9.8 this season. I should note that perhaps the most important aspect that Mike (and Kantrail) added to that team was a secondary ballhandler.

    Stevie Johnson < Marquis Gilstrap
    Sure, Stevie had a ton of heart, and is a great guy, always smiling. But this one isn't even close. Stevie averaged 9.1 ppg. I suspect that Marquis might better that.

    Kantrail Horton = Scott Christopherson, Lucca Staiger or Wes Eikmeier
    Just guessing who to stick here. Any one of these guys might match Kantrail's 8.7 ppg. Of course, Lucca did average 8.2 ppg this year, but that wasn't Kantrail's only contribution. Perhaps I should have slotted Garrett here. By the way, considering the comparison, it's ironic that Kantrail was key to landing Marquis.

    Paul Shirley < Jamie Vanderbeken
    Paul averaged 7.7ppg and 4.4 rpg. Anyone care to figure out Jamie's stats over the latter part of the season? Doesn't matter, because on talent, Jamie is well ahead (outside the classroom).

    Martin Rancik < Justin Hamilton
    I liked Martin, but this one isn't really close, either. And if JH can make even a moderate step up, he'll easily surpass Martin's 5.5ppg and 3.8 rpg.

    Beyond that, we're down to the likes of Brandon Hawkins, Thomas Watkins, and Richard Evans, who all averaged 3.2 ppg or less. I already have Christopherson and Eikmeier on the board as wild cards, and still have a Buckley and a Pomlee up my sleeve.

    Yes, if you wanted to evaluate the respective teams, you might shift the matchups around a little. For one thing, perhaps Tinsley should be matched against fellow juco Gilstrap. Or, if you went strictly positionally, Jamaal > DG--but then Colvin wins somewhere else, talentwise. As Gilstrap already does. I could flip some other matchups around, but I'm lazy.

    However, my point was as to the respective talent, which was the point that I made in the first place, and I'd have to say that I'm pleased to me realize that next year's team might even be slightly more talented than that '99-00 squad.

    With base talent being the argument that is being made. How everything meshes is yet to be seen. As well as the improvents of some players, and the contributions of newcomers.

    And I'll also point of that that Elite Eight team was coming off a 15-15 season the year before. I can't say what changes and maturity this team will make and embrace in the ensuing months. Or how the newcomers will fare. But it's obvious that if CB returns, the talent is equal to that '99-'00 team.

    So we'll see what happens.
    Thanks for the write up--definitely took some time. I also think it is good to get away from that other thread title. Some people took too much offense to that.

    One question:

    How do you assess the coaching? It seems that may be what you're thinking is the difference maker between the Elite 8 squad and next year's squad.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    You underrated Michael Nurse and especially Kantrail Horton. Also, I would take Tinsley any day any league. And you forgot the words unproven commodity. Every McD team that I have seen seems to take till Feb before they get up to speed.


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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    You're DRUNK...

    Kantrail Horton is twice the shooter any of those three jokes you listed next to his name was. He was clutch from half court in...

    Jamal Tinsley should never be mentioned in the same breath of an incoming freshman that has never played at the big 12 level... Jamal could get in the lane WHENEVER he wanted to.

    Michael Nurse played defense and could shoot the three... Diante hasn't proven he can do either at the big 12 level.

    Paul Shirley and Jamie Vanderbeeken are not on the same level or play the same game. Paul Shirley has touched the pro leagues in the NBA/abroad and Jamie won't touch the NBA. Also, Jamie is an outside shooter in a 6'11" body. He has no low post game. Paul could work the block.

    Martin Rancik that year is better than Justin Hamilton right now. And next year too. Maybe by the time the Ham is a senior... we can talk.


    I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I get tired of people smoking whatever you guys are smoking thinking the team we fielded with Colvin added in is AS GOOD AS QUITE POSSIBLY THE BEST TEAM EVER TO GO THORUGH HILTON COLESIUM! I think we can make the big dance... but let's not hold our breath...



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    Martin was much quicker than Hamilton and we could get away with a big lineup because he could hold his own against a 3 if need be... He also was a far better passer (when he did pass).

    I would put Paul at = with VDB. He may not be the scorer, but he is far better defensively. Paul's ability to play D against a good big man is what got him a little time on NBA rosters.

    Nurse > DG. Nurse could handle the ball and shoot, not to mention play some pretty solid D. DG will never be half the shooter that Nurse was.

    Horton > three headed monster. They may match his ppg, but nowhere near his intangibles as all three will be a defensive liability.

    Gilstrap = Stevie, all accounts I have heard on Gilstrap are 10 and 5, 12 and 5 at most. Not near as strong or athletic as Stevie but better ball handler.

    The biggest difference in the elite 8 team is all of those guys were well rounded basketball players. Our team now is full of specialist and one or two dimensional players, alot of whom struggled at their one dimension too much of the time.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    good write-up unfortunately I would disagree with about every single one of your assessments



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    I'm not even drinking that much kool aid.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    Fizer =< Brackins: Great players, CB might have the edge.

    Tinsley >>> Colvin: The guy was first team all Big 12 as a Junior. Big time PG. Colvin needs to prove something first.

    Johnson < Gilstrap: Stevie was a great role player but Gilstrap has more raw talent

    Nurse > DG: Nurse is light years ahead of DG.

    Horton > Any of the 4 guys you mentioned or combined: Horton was big time and won big games. Great defender.

    Rancik = Hamilton: Not much to say. Both role players on their respective teams.
    Shirley > JVB: Paul played defense. JVB plays none.

    The Elite Eight team is sooooo much tougher than this current bunch it's not even funny. They we're much more athletic and played better defense inside and out. Talent wise, it's close in certain positions but there's too many unknowns to make a comparison like this. I hope Colvin proves to be more talented than JT but that's a huge stretch.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    Way underestimated your "talent" of Nurse and Horton. Both were ballers.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    Quote Originally Posted by Aclone View Post
    I posted this elsewhere, but I figured that (with a few changes) it deserved it's own thread.

    Talent? Yes. I didn't say anything about experience. Or even cohesiveness. Both of those are yet to be seen. But talent--most certainly. As I found when I looked more closely.

    Let's see. What were the prominent players? I suppose I should look beyond the top of the food chain Fizer-Tinsley matchups...

    Marcus Fizer = Craig Brackins
    Easy. It remains to be seen whether CB will match (or exceed) Marcus' junior season, but I'd say his soph season was slightly ahead of Marcus' soph season. Talentwise, equal.

    Jamaal Tinsley = Chris Colvin
    Remember, we (or I) said talent, and in the long run, Colvin might prove to be even better than Tinsley. But the talent is probably equivalent. At least. How it proves out is yet to be seen--just like Tinsley when he first signed. JT averaged 11 ppg, 6.6 apg 2.6 spg that season.

    Michael Nurse = Diante Garrett
    Yes, Diante needs to continue to step up his game, become more consistent. We don't know yet how much improvement he'll make. But the talent is probably equal. At the least. Mike averaged 12.5 ppg that year, Diante 9.8 this season. I should note that perhaps the most important aspect that Mike (and Kantrail) added to that team was a secondary ballhandler.

    Stevie Johnson < Marquis Gilstrap
    Sure, Stevie had a ton of heart, and is a great guy, always smiling. But this one isn't even close. Stevie averaged 9.1 ppg. I suspect that Marquis might better that.

    Kantrail Horton = Scott Christopherson, Lucca Staiger or Wes Eikmeier
    Just guessing who to stick here. Any one of these guys might match Kantrail's 8.7 ppg. Of course, Lucca did average 8.2 ppg this year, but that wasn't Kantrail's only contribution. Perhaps I should have slotted Garrett here. By the way, considering the comparison, it's ironic that Kantrail was key to landing Marquis.

    Paul Shirley < Jamie Vanderbeken
    Paul averaged 7.7ppg and 4.4 rpg. Anyone care to figure out Jamie's stats over the latter part of the season? Doesn't matter, because on talent, Jamie is well ahead (outside the classroom).

    Martin Rancik < Justin Hamilton
    I liked Martin, but this one isn't really close, either. And if JH can make even a moderate step up, he'll easily surpass Martin's 5.5ppg and 3.8 rpg.

    Beyond that, we're down to the likes of Brandon Hawkins, Thomas Watkins, and Richard Evans, who all averaged 3.2 ppg or less. I already have Christopherson and Eikmeier on the board as wild cards, and still have a Buckley and a Pomlee up my sleeve.

    Yes, if you wanted to evaluate the respective teams, you might shift the matchups around a little. For one thing, perhaps Tinsley should be matched against fellow juco Gilstrap. Or, if you went strictly positionally, Jamaal > DG--but then Colvin wins somewhere else, talentwise. As Gilstrap already does. I could flip some other matchups around, but I'm lazy.

    However, my point was as to the respective talent, which was the point that I made in the first place, and I'd have to say that I'm pleased to me realize that next year's team might even be slightly more talented than that '99-01 squad.

    With base talent being the argument that is being made. How everything meshes is yet to be seen. As well as the improvents of some players, and the contributions of newcomers.

    And I'll also point of that that Elite Eight team was coming off a 15-15 season the year before. I can't say what changes and maturity this team will make and embrace in the ensuing months. Or how the newcomers will fare. But it's obvious that if CB returns, the talent is equal to that '99-'00 team.

    So we'll see what happens.
    I actually don't disagree with this totally and I like the point about coming off a 15-15 season. But I do like to argue.
    I think my biggest problem with your arguement is using mostly ppg stats. I know its hard to compare players without using numbers, but the 99-00 had something extra. For example, comparing Garrett and Nurse, Nurse seemed to have the ability to hit the big outside shot when we needed. Garrett's jumper is lacking and I don't see it improving that much to the point I'd trust him taking a "big shot" down the stretch of the game. JT vs Colvin, hard to say yet obviously but JT came in as a leader and Colvin will be a freshman, not that he can't be a leader, but a lot to put on a freshman. Also, I'm not sure how much defense you took into account. I haven't looked at the numbers one way or the other, and I think that's where Stevie, Horton and Shirley contributed a lot.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    I'll take the arguement of Fizer and Brackins. In reality they're two completely different players. Although Brackins certainly has what it takes to be every bit the collegiate star Marcus was. If he can build up his body, be able to play in the block and with his back to the basket, he will be better than Fizer as his game 12 feet out is already better.

    I don't know how you can say that Colvin and Tinsley are equal as we haven't Colvin play a game yet. Maybe he will be, but I seriously doubt we'll see another player with the ball skills of JT. From a scoring standpoint, he may very well be able to contribute immediately as JT.

    Nurse and Garrett. Sorry, not buying this one at all. Mike's value was being able to hit an outside shot. Haven't seen that from Garrett. IMO, this contest isn't even close.

    I think you're better off comparing DG with Kantrail (both 2nd guards - we think anyway) and Nurse with the other shooters. Even so, Kantrail is thusfar a better shooter than DG and Nurse much more than Lucca, Eik, and don't know about Christopherson (don't really know about Eik either)

    I'll wait to see Gilstrap. Offense isn't everything. Stevie was a garbage man who worked hard on the boards and even harder on D. The toughest assignment went to him every single game.

    After that, the comparisons really are hard to make. The players are much different. I like the potential of VanderBeeken and Hamilton over Shirley and Rancik. But at least those two were willing to bang down low. Haven't really seen much of that yet from this round of bigs.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    Talent alone is not what got them to the Elite 8. I think it was toughness. All of those guys were tough. Mentally and physically, they were tough. That's what the difference is between those guys and any other ISU team. Pure talent? I think there are lots of ISU teams that could measure up: Orr's '85, Floyd's '95, WM's '05, etc. But none were as tough as Tinsley, Fizer, et al.

    Toughness got Tinsley to the rim anytime he wanted. Toughness got Fizer to the line. Toughness got Horton knocking down daggers at KU.

    Oh yeah, they had talent, too.


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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    I think the problem is that you're looking at statistical output. Sure, Shirley and Horton's statistical output could easily be matched by a number of players, but anyone who watched that Elite 8 team knows how valuable those players were. They were tough, mature, and performed under pressure. All the role players on that team did the little things necessary at the right times.

    Brackins vs. Fizer is the only toss-up in my opinion. Gilstrap over Johnson is the only one I really agree with based on what I've heard about Gilstrap.

    Tinsley was one of the best PGs in the country that year. Nurse and Horton would make you pay if you came to help on Tinsley on a drive or came to help on Fizer in the post. Defenses had to pick their poison that year.



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    Re: Talent, Next Season vs. the '00 Elite Eight Squad

    This team is nowhere near the talent level of the '00 team. I only seeing us getting to that level if Craig stays and plays one year with HB.



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