Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 72
  1. #46
    Legend
    Points: 198,961, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesVeteran50000 Experience Points
    dmclone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    50131
    Posts
    12,948
    Points
    198,961
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 51
    Given: 125

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    I think mechanics in all brands have gotten so good that it's almost a moot point but it seems to be everything everyone wants to talk about. What I think hurts the domestics is fit/finish.

    For example, I haven't had a domestic in about 15 years but the G8 looks really nice. I went to the omaha car show and sat in a G8. The first thing I notice is how the door shuts. I know this sound trivial but I'm used to cars that sound good when you shut the doors. The G8 didn't make that sound I like to hear. So then I start thinking to myself "if they can't even make the doors shut properly where else did they come up short?". Then I look at used corvettes and everyone over 5 years old has leather that looks like it's been through hell and back. I would have no problem buying a domestic based on reliability, where I do have questions in on the interior quality and the ability to hold up.



  2. #47
    Legend
    Points: 190,165, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 4.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    jbhtexas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Arlington, TX
    Posts
    10,487
    Points
    190,165
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 27
    Given: 19

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by dmclone View Post
    I can't stand when people say things like "The Acura TL is just an upgraded Accord". Have you driven both? They are completely different cars. I bet less than 10% of the TL is based on the Accord. The motor is different, AWD is an option, everything in the interior is different, the body is different, and the transmission is different.
    Truth. Several years ago when I had a TL, I asked the dealer why I shouldn't just get a high-end Accord and save some money. I'm pretty sure he got that question quite a bit, as he had his response well rehearsed. I forget the exact figure now, but the percentage of common parts between the two cars was not that high...under 50%...


    "Don't worry Boss...they can't do nothin' 'til they're through sparklin'..."

    Avatar - America's new superhero...Cenex Guy

  3. #48
    All-Star
    Points: 20,560, Level: 43
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 190
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Cyclone90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Johnston, IA
    Posts
    1,383
    Points
    20,560
    Level
    43
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1
    Given: 6

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    How is this really any different than any automaker out there? Sure, Lexuses might have some significant upgrades over Toyotas, but when you get right down to the basics, an E-series is no different than a Toyota Camry, an Acura TL is really no different than a Honda Accord, a Nissan Maxima isn't really all that different than an Infiniti G/M, and Hyundais aren't all that different than Kias. So why is it that GM gets crucified for doing the same thing that every other automaker does?
    Because GM has done it times three or four times over instead of two. For example, I had a Olds Calais right out of the college. Pretty much the same car as the Pontiac Grand Am and Buick Somerset. Weren't the Chevy Lumina, Cutlass, Grand Prix and and Regal all essentially the same care? Two tiers of the same platform makes sense, but three or four. They could have saved some coin.

    The paradigm of any successful business has to adapt over the years. GM chose not too over decades.



  4. #49
    Addict
    Points: 146,976, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 12.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    6,187
    Points
    146,976
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 0
    Given: 0

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Hmmm, I had been thinking G8 for my next car but now I'm not so sure. Hopefully I don't need one any time soon so I can wait and see what happens. My motorcycle is a Honda, but that's a toy... I'll probably always buy American for my primary transportation.



  5. #50
    Legend
    Points: 198,961, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesVeteran50000 Experience Points
    dmclone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    50131
    Posts
    12,948
    Points
    198,961
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 51
    Given: 125

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleClone View Post
    Hmmm, I had been thinking G8 for my next car but now I'm not so sure. Hopefully I don't need one any time soon so I can wait and see what happens. My motorcycle is a Honda, but that's a toy... I'll probably always buy American for my primary transportation.
    Keep in mind that I'm still considering it. It's a lot of car for the $26K you can pick a G8 GT up for.



  6. #51
    Speechless
    Points: 464,864, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 15.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jdoggivjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
    Posts
    31,227
    Points
    464,864
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 279
    Given: 184

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by dmclone View Post
    Can you give more specifics?

    What's the Infiniti equivalent of the Maxima?
    What's the toyota equivalent of an Lexus IS
    What the toyota equivalent of an LS460

    I can't stand when people say things like "The Acura TL is just an upgraded Accord". Have you driven both? They are completely different cars. I bet less than 10% of the TL is based on the Accord. The motor is different, AWD is an option, everything in the interior is different, the body is different, and the transmission is different.

    Here is a good way to tell

    Take the badges off a GMC and a chevy truck and see what % of the population can guess which one it is. Then drive both of them and tell me you can tell a difference,

    Next take the badges off a Accord and a TL and I can guarantee you that most people could tell the difference.

    With that being said, there are some examples of the Japanese doing the same thing the domestics do. The Infiniti G37 and the Nissan 370Z are very close besides one having a back seat.
    So tell me, oh wise one - what is so common between a Chevrolet and a Cadillac? Last time I checked, outside of the SUVs - nothing.


    Chuck Lidell: I paint my toenails with pink and black polish. Problem is, I get more paint on my toes and on the carpet than on my nails. Any advice?
    Maria Sharapova: Don't you beat up other guys for a living? I don't know how to answer this.



  7. #52
    Chile Mac is Back!
    Points: 298,434, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 39.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranCreated Album pictures50000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    LindenCy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    22,651
    Points
    298,434
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 137
    Given: 342

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by Landshark View Post

    The only problem I had with Saturns were the dealers who refused to budge on price even a little bit, nice guys, but all they had to do was budge even $500 and they would have had 2 vehicles purchased by my wife and I.
    Yeah, I hate that they are pretty fixed, although the "no hassle, no haggle" is part of their approach. I think this has changed a lot recently too.



  8. #53
    Speechless
    Points: 381,110, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 55.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Wesley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Omaha
    Posts
    55,594
    Points
    381,110
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 151
    Given: 124

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    So the Tennesee Saturn plant will soon be history.


    CFH HMagic bball season next year.
    Let my Fred's Four Horsemen ride: Georges, Hogue, Nader, and McKay.

  9. #54
    Legend
    Points: 198,961, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesVeteran50000 Experience Points
    dmclone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    50131
    Posts
    12,948
    Points
    198,961
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 51
    Given: 125

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    So tell me, oh wise one - what is so common between a Chevrolet and a Cadillac? Last time I checked, outside of the SUVs - nothing.
    I never said anything about Cadillac cars. I consider Hummer a lot like Cadillac, yes they share some motors and frames with GM vehicles, but they are a lot different. On the other hand:


    Equinox-Torrent-Vue
    Acadia-Outlook
    Yukon-Suburban
    Malibu-Auro
    Cobalt-G6 or G5 (can't remember)
    Solstice-Sky
    Colorado-Canyon
    Silverado-Sierra
    Express-Savana


    I'm sure there are at least 5 more that I forgot and that's just GM. From what I've seen, the cars above are pretty much clones of each other besides some little body differences.



  10. #55
    Addict
    Points: 80,367, Level: 88
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,583
    Overall activity: 3.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    jumbopackage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,452
    Points
    80,367
    Level
    88
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 0
    Given: 1

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    Of course not. Pontiac doesn't have any engineers. Of course neither does Chevy, GMC, Buick, Cadillac, Opel, Vauxhaul or even Holden. GM has engineers. They have them in N America, Europe, Asia and Australia. GM Europe did most of the developement on the Epsilon II platform which will underpin the new Buick LaCrosse, next Malibu, Saab 9-3, and Opel Insignia (Buick Insignia for China.) Are all of these cars to be considered Opels then?
    Wrong. Holden engineers not only engineered the car in it's entirety, but also the platform it rides on. The Zeta platform was designed expressly for the VE Commodore.

    If Pontiac was even actually building the G8, it would be a different story. They aren't. They are literally slapping their emblem on the hood and bolting a few pieces of plastic on it and calling it a Pontiac. That is totally different than actually building a car around a platform. It's literally just marketing fluff.

    I think I've been down this road before on this board with the G6/Malibu debate.

    Bottom line is that Pontiac is expendable. They produce nothing (aside from maybe the Solstice/sky which are both basically a mishmash of parts from the parts bin) of real value for GM that can't be marketed under a different brand to the exact same market segment. They have been dead weight for some time now, and GM finally sees that too.



  11. #56
    Legend
    Points: 198,961, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesVeteran50000 Experience Points
    dmclone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    50131
    Posts
    12,948
    Points
    198,961
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 51
    Given: 125

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by jumbopackage View Post
    Wrong. Holden engineers not only engineered the car in it's entirety, but also the platform it rides on. The Zeta platform was designed expressly for the VE Commodore.

    If Pontiac was even actually building the G8, it would be a different story. They aren't. They are literally slapping their emblem on the hood and bolting a few pieces of plastic on it and calling it a Pontiac. That is totally different than actually building a car around a platform. It's literally just marketing fluff.

    I think I've been down this road before on this board with the G6/Malibu debate.

    Bottom line is that Pontiac is expendable. They produce nothing (aside from maybe the Solstice/sky which are both basically a mishmash of parts from the parts bin) of real value for GM that can't be marketed under a different brand to the exact same market segment. They have been dead weight for some time now, and GM finally sees that too.
    I agree with most of what you say but you can pretty much say this about GMC, Hummer, Buick, and Saturn.

    I think you just get rid of the Impala and put a chevy badge on the G8.
    I honestly think that if GM just took there best 10 cars and did a Honda/Acura type thing they would be fine. Here would be the 10 that I choose for the new company.

    Chevy Corvette
    Silverado
    Vue
    Acadia
    Malibu
    G8


    Escalade
    CTS
    Lucerne


    Then they would just need to add a flagship car to replace the STS, a small alternative to the Civic, and just skip making a micro car(aka fit). There is no money in small cars and you're competing against the Koreans who you can't undercut and the Japanese who you're going to have a tough time beating. Your alternative is the Volt. A car that gets better gas mileage but is still nice.

    The get rid of the 300 options on one car. Have 3 packages on each model BX (basic), LX (middle), and XX (special).



  12. #57
    Speechless
    Points: 464,864, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 15.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jdoggivjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
    Posts
    31,227
    Points
    464,864
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 279
    Given: 184

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by dmclone View Post
    I never said anything about Cadillac cars. I consider Hummer a lot like Cadillac, yes they share some motors and frames with GM vehicles, but they are a lot different. On the other hand:


    Equinox-Torrent-Vue
    Acadia-Outlook
    Yukon-Suburban
    Malibu-Auro
    Cobalt-G6 or G5 (can't remember)
    Solstice-Sky
    Colorado-Canyon
    Silverado-Sierra
    Express-Savana


    I'm sure there are at least 5 more that I forgot and that's just GM. From what I've seen, the cars above are pretty much clones of each other besides some little body differences.
    It's G6-Malibu-Aura and G5-Cobalt first.

    And second, as far as cloning goes, how is that different than any other auto corporation in the world as I have pointed out? Yes, one would never mistake the driving experience between a Camry or an E-series. But it doesn't change the fact that for all purposes it's the exact same car (Camry is listed as an XV40, ES is listed as GSV40) - exact same wheel base (109.3 in), length is roughly 190 in (differences due to body differences), width is roughly 72 in (same), height is roughly 58 in (same) - the high end Camry even has the same engine (3.5 L 2GR-FE V6 (200 kW (270 hp)) and transmission (6-speed automatic) as the Lexus ES - IT'S THE EXACT SAME CAR!!! But yet GM is the only manufacturer that gets critiqued for "brand engineering"...


    Chuck Lidell: I paint my toenails with pink and black polish. Problem is, I get more paint on my toes and on the carpet than on my nails. Any advice?
    Maria Sharapova: Don't you beat up other guys for a living? I don't know how to answer this.



  13. #58
    Legend
    Points: 198,961, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesVeteran50000 Experience Points
    dmclone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    50131
    Posts
    12,948
    Points
    198,961
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 51
    Given: 125

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    It's G6-Malibu-Aura and G5-Cobalt first.

    And second, as far as cloning goes, how is that different than any other auto corporation in the world as I have pointed out? Yes, one would never mistake the driving experience between a Camry or an E-series. But it doesn't change the fact that for all purposes it's the exact same car (Camry is listed as an XV40, ES is listed as GSV40) - exact same wheel base (109.3 in), length is roughly 190 in (differences due to body differences), width is roughly 72 in (same), height is roughly 58 in (same) - the high end Camry even has the same engine (3.5 L 2GR-FE V6 (200 kW (270 hp)) and transmission (6-speed automatic) as the Lexus ES - IT'S THE EXACT SAME CAR!!! But yet GM is the only manufacturer that gets critiqued for "brand engineering"...
    Because they are in two completely different classes. It's like comparing a Yukon to an Escalade. Yes, some of the things may be the same but one is a standard SUV while the other one is a luxury SUV that costs $20K more. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is how Saturn, Chevy, and Pontiac make these vehicles that are almost identical in every way except a badge.

    Your comparison of the ES350 and the Camry is probably one of the rare exceptions of the Japanese doing this. Like I said before, the Nissan 370Z and G37 is another example but there are still enough differences between the two where one is a family car and one is an entry level luxury car.


    If you go and drive a Honda Accord and then an Acura TL and tell me that you can't tell a big difference than you're lying. If you go and drive both a G5 and a cobalt and see a big difference I'd be suprised.



  14. #59
    Addict
    Points: 80,367, Level: 88
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,583
    Overall activity: 3.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    jumbopackage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,452
    Points
    80,367
    Level
    88
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 0
    Given: 1

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Quote Originally Posted by dmclone View Post
    I agree with most of what you say but you can pretty much say this about GMC, Hummer, Buick, and Saturn.

    I think you just get rid of the Impala and put a chevy badge on the G8.
    I honestly think that if GM just took there best 10 cars and did a Honda/Acura type thing they would be fine. Here would be the 10 that I choose for the new company.

    Chevy Corvette
    Silverado
    Vue
    Acadia
    Malibu
    G8


    Escalade
    CTS
    Lucerne


    Then they would just need to add a flagship car to replace the STS, a small alternative to the Civic, and just skip making a micro car(aka fit). There is no money in small cars and you're competing against the Koreans who you can't undercut and the Japanese who you're going to have a tough time beating. Your alternative is the Volt. A car that gets better gas mileage but is still nice.

    The get rid of the 300 options on one car. Have 3 packages on each model BX (basic), LX (middle), and XX (special).
    I whole-heartedly agree. They make a few decent cars, they are just so spread out amongst their different lines, and interspersed with crap, that they get lost in the shuffle. A G8/Impala, Malibu combo could take on Camry/Corolla IMO.

    I'm convinced that GM builds so many vehicles partly because they have to keep a bunch of people employed as opposed to market necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    It's G6-Malibu-Aura and G5-Cobalt first.

    And second, as far as cloning goes, how is that different than any other auto corporation in the world as I have pointed out? Yes, one would never mistake the driving experience between a Camry or an E-series. But it doesn't change the fact that for all purposes it's the exact same car (Camry is listed as an XV40, ES is listed as GSV40) - exact same wheel base (109.3 in), length is roughly 190 in (differences due to body differences), width is roughly 72 in (same), height is roughly 58 in (same) - the high end Camry even has the same engine (3.5 L 2GR-FE V6 (200 kW (270 hp)) and transmission (6-speed automatic) as the Lexus ES - IT'S THE EXACT SAME CAR!!! But yet GM is the only manufacturer that gets critiqued for "brand engineering"...
    They are clearly different cars aimed at different markets. The price tags alone tell you that. Whether you think it's worth the price premium is a whole different story.

    Get behind the wheel of a G6, Malibu and Aura with the badge covered up and the same "midrange" trim level and tell me which is which to a person who hasn't seen them. Now do the same with a Camry and an E-series. Yes, you could order ever feature possible for the Camry and compare that to a bare bones Lexus and maybe get close, but you're going to be close in price at that point as well.

    It would be one thing if GM sold the G6 in the US, the Malibu in Europe and the Aura in Asia. It sells all 3 in the same market. It's confusing, pointless and expensive.



  15. #60
    Speechless
    Points: 464,864, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 15.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jdoggivjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
    Posts
    31,227
    Points
    464,864
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 279
    Given: 184

    Re: So Long Saturn and Pontiac

    Really?

    Honda Accord v. Acura TL
    Wheelbase: ~110 in
    Length: ~190 in
    Width: ~73 in
    Engine: 3.5L V6 (option on Accord, base on TL)
    Transmission: 5 speed automatic

    Honda Civic v. Acura CSX

    Wheelbase: 106.3 in
    Length: ~177 in
    Width: ~69 in
    Height: 56.5 in
    Engine: 2.0 L (option on Civic, base on CSX)
    Transmission: 5 speed automatic, 5 speed manual, 6 speed manual

    That's just three examples - point is it's nowhere near as "rare" as you make it out to be.


    Chuck Lidell: I paint my toenails with pink and black polish. Problem is, I get more paint on my toes and on the carpet than on my nails. Any advice?
    Maria Sharapova: Don't you beat up other guys for a living? I don't know how to answer this.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • Football
  • Iowa State vs. North Dakota State
  • August 30, 2014
  • 06:00 PM