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    Climate denier testimony - a good read

    that explains the attitudes of many of we skeptics...


    http://www.nsstc.uah.edu/atmos/chris...AQ_written.pdf



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    A good read indeed. Although I am afraid that many skeptics read something like this and use it as a basis for inaction. I hope that there are policy makers and innovators out there who read this as a charge to answer his outlying questions and issues.

    The thing I find that's interesting in all this is that very rarely does anyone doubt our ability to have an impact on energy supply and demand - the reasons are often always compounded into non-sequitur. Energy demand is rising (and fast). In order to meet that demand we need to find local supply solutions with local applications (thus removing costly and inefficient transmission from the equation.) If solar works in California, Arizona and New Mexico, great! Biofuels may work in Iowa, Nebraska and Kansas; Geothermal in New York and the Northeast. Efficiency and reduced demand are very similar (although our current use of a semi-ubiquitous grid technologies allow for larger opportunities).

    On a global scale these small networks of local supply may amount to very little, but nationally and regionally those are excellent strides toward meeting our growing demand for the future.

    Skepticism is not an excuse to do nothing, just a reason to do something special.



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Good article, but it won't make a difference. Global warming is like politics, people have their mind made up. It takes a drastic event for them to change their mind, like when they have kids or tax bracket creep sets in. Some people like to feel bad or guilty about things, especially doing well in life. Belief in global warming gives them that crutch. Me? I exhale as much as possible to get more carbon into the air. Muhahahahahahaha


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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Quote Originally Posted by joefrog View Post
    Good article, but it won't make a difference. Global warming is like politics, people have their mind made up. It takes a drastic event for them to change their mind, like when they have kids or tax bracket creep sets in. Some people like to feel bad or guilty about things, especially doing well in life. Belief in global warming gives them that crutch. Me? I exhale as much as possible to get more carbon into the air. Muhahahahahahaha
    Methane is worse, you should fart more as well!



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Quote Originally Posted by rlegg928 View Post

    Skepticism is not an excuse to do nothing, just a reason to do something special.
    At what cost though? From all that I have read, plans such as the Kyoto protocol would have a negligible affect on the atmosphere, while costing in the billions to enact. That means losses of jobs, production, food, healthcare. All of which hurt people. I am all for clean air and water, and alternative energy options, but I am also a realist. The Earth drastically pollutes itself. Don't believe me? Research what happens when volcanoes go off.


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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Quote Originally Posted by joefrog View Post
    At what cost though? From all that I have read, plans such as the Kyoto protocol would have a negligible affect on the atmosphere, while costing in the billions to enact. That means losses of jobs, production, food, healthcare. All of which hurt people. I am all for clean air and water, and alternative energy options, but I am also a realist. The Earth drastically pollutes itself. Don't believe me? Research what happens when volcanoes go off.
    So, that gives us the right to do whatever we want? I don't think the original poster was challenging skepticism, he was challenging the ideal that because you don't believe it you do nothing, or worse, do more because, what the hell, look how polluting volcanoes are. I would say a volcano erupting and power companies maximizing output so that I can run the AC in an underinsulated house are two different things. Maybe we should look at it as "The earth already pollutes itself, so, what can I do to not add to that problem?" Even the smallest things help.



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    One of the chief fallacies in this debate is that we can affect worldwide change here. Until all countries are willing to play on a level playing field, nothing will happen. The US signing on while China does not simply makes Chinese goods cheaper, the US imports those goods, and in effect increases pollution from there. Sure, we'll feel great about what we're doing in principle, but in reality, we've just made matters worse.

    Third world countries will not sign on, as doing so will relegate them to virtually permanent third world status. They simply do not have the resources to convert.



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Quote Originally Posted by joefrog View Post
    At what cost though? From all that I have read, plans such as the Kyoto protocol would have a negligible affect on the atmosphere, while costing in the billions to enact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    One of the chief fallacies in this debate is that we can affect worldwide change here. Until all countries are willing to play on a level playing field, nothing will happen.
    Global policy never works - it's too expensive and never equitable. What were going for isn't a level playing field, it's equitability.
    Quote Originally Posted by joefrog View Post
    That means losses of jobs, production, food, healthcare. All of which hurt people. I am all for clean air and water, and alternative energy options, but I am also a realist.
    It doesn't mean loss of jobs, it means changing jobs - in the long term domestic job levels will remain approximately the same if our GDP and population rise in parallel with our imports and exports remaining approximately the same (% basis). What if we start creating jobs that support independence on a local, regional or national level? In the short term we may see factories close, but those laborers and professionals will be trained again and take on new employment - employment that is more connected to their livelihood than before because it will be based on local economies and, in this case, local energy production and efficiency.



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Quote Originally Posted by rlegg928 View Post
    Global policy never works - it's too expensive and never equitable. What were going for isn't a level playing field, it's equitability.


    It doesn't mean loss of jobs, it means changing jobs - in the long term domestic job levels will remain approximately the same if our GDP and population rise in parallel with our imports and exports remaining approximately the same (% basis). What if we start creating jobs that support independence on a local, regional or national level? In the short term we may see factories close, but those laborers and professionals will be trained again and take on new employment - employment that is more connected to their livelihood than before because it will be based on local economies and, in this case, local energy production and efficiency.
    What sorts of jobs? Those windmills have maintenance people, but it does not take a whole lot of them. I drive by them all the time and never see anybody by them. Liberals won't let us drill for oil or dig for coal so no jobs there. So unless we plan on slapping people on treadmills and yelling giddy'up there are not going to be a whole lot of jobs for them to do.


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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    If we could just move Al Gore's house and airplanes to Alaska, the nighttime temps in Tennessee would be lower. Problem solved.


    CFH HMagic bball season next year.
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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Quote Originally Posted by joefrog View Post
    At what cost though? From all that I have read, plans such as the Kyoto protocol would have a negligible affect on the atmosphere, while costing in the billions to enact. That means losses of jobs, production, food, healthcare. All of which hurt people. I am all for clean air and water, and alternative energy options, but I am also a realist. The Earth drastically pollutes itself. Don't believe me? Research what happens when volcanoes go off.
    Here's some perspective -- I work at a utility in WA state. Our legislature enacted a renewables law where we need 15% (20%) renewables by 2020. The rub is we're nearly 50% hydro and the enviros have specifically excluded hydro as a "renewable". We have a biomass plant which can not be grandfathered in as well. The result? We had to buy a wind project that will be "rated" at 50mw for $225M to meet the stringent requirements. Now a project "rated" at 50mw - especially wind - won't give you 50. In our load forecasts we count on roughly 20% of that - wind variability and all. So to meet baseload, we must have other generation spinning to meet load. The dams in the NW are good for certain months, but after that we need fossil gen (natty gas, coal) to meet loads. And who pays for the "greening" of our utility (we are 1 of the GREENEST utilities in the nation btw)? Ratepayers. This is the economics of "global warming".

    EVERY denier will (should) say we are obligated to be great stewards to this planet. But in real life, the costs MUST be factored in with the good that those dollars buy.



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Guess you need to move people across statelines to meet your goals.


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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    Quote Originally Posted by joefrog View Post
    What sorts of jobs? Those windmills have maintenance people, but it does not take a whole lot of them. I drive by them all the time and never see anybody by them. Liberals won't let us drill for oil or dig for coal so no jobs there. So unless we plan on slapping people on treadmills and yelling giddy'up there are not going to be a whole lot of jobs for them to do.

    Supply of uranium is running out as recycled war materials are used up. Nuclear power will cost a lot to provide, especially if we build more plants.

    Coal contracts to utilities are being pulled back or not renewed as price of coal is going up (mine expansion takes serval years and ius expensive.)

    Thx to Mansfield LA natural gas finds, natural gas may be the best deal for near future.

    Even if we put a small windmill in everyones back yard, they would not store the energy long term without a lot of expense.

    Still waiting for the second large solar mirror project. keep seeing the same old one, year in, year out, in CA. If they are so good, start building more mirros.

    Still waiting for more film solar on roofs in new subdivisions. Oh the zoning goons will not allow it? Short sighted.

    After everyone has a high efficiency air conditioner and furnance then what? Waiting for even mnore energy efficient laptops.

    GM Yahoo Tahoe has sold only 1000 hybrid units. Wow. That was a big seller.

    Pelosi wants to draw the emergency oil reserve in the slat domes. That might work for 3 months and then what?

    Push for more carpooling? Giant silence. No one wants to carpool in metro areas.

    Teleworking at home? The boss is afraid to let you do that.

    Yep, sounds like we have a long ways to go to solve the energy problem. Just put additional insulation in my attic. Stopped driving to church on Sundays and Starbucks on Wednesdays. Thinking about smaller car like the Jetta. Probably wait for the Tata Motors Indian motorcycle specialty. Well, that is enough energy worry and conservation for this year...onto tailgating.


    CFH HMagic bball season next year.
    Let my Fred's Four Horsemen ride: Georges, Hogue, Nader, and McKay.

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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    The paper suggested growing more corn in areas we are not utilizing like Alabama that has a poor economy and needs jobs. He advocated federal irrigation projects. I would advocate the feds (army corp of engineers) to allow private companies to develop the irrigation needed to make corn farming possible in places like Alabama. Then, as the author stated, build more ethanol plants. I know it is debatable if this is a good source, but until something better happens, it is better than no action. If we can increase corn production and biofuel production, the food prices will not rise because of more biofuel. Perhaps some of these actions will not only help with energy and independence, but also create jobs and support our economy. Other ideas need developing as well. Just my two cents.



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    Re: Climate denier testimony - a good read

    The simple fact of the matter is that mankind is experiencing an unprecedented period of improvement for our quality of life. We have to be responsible, and plan for the future. However, we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. While greens may be loving the high fuel prices, and wish it to stay that way, it causes an unbelievable amount of hardship for those who can least afford increased costs of living.



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