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  1. #1
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    I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Hey, long time lurker here. If anyone remembers me from the old CN board, I've been quiet for about a year & a half due to being fed up with all the CN Board Drama - but this WJ issue made me re-register & log in to give my $0.02 worth.

    Do I blame Wesley for leaving ISU? Unless I hear that he "bigtimed" ISU on his way out the door, I'm going to wish him well at his new school & remember him as a good kid who worked his *** off for ISU while he was here.

    Do I blame Coach Mac for Wesley leaving? Let's wait for the facts. I like Coach Mac, and I think he's a good person. I don't want to blame him for this unless I can't help it, so I'll cross that bridge when I get more facts.

    What does concern me? The direction of ISU men's basketball. When Wayne Morgan was fired, we were promised everything short of the moon and a National Championship when Greg McD was hired. His players were supposed to go to class, get good grades, stay out of trouble, play unselfish ball within the system, help old ladies across Lincoln Way with their groceries, and solve the "Global Warming" problem in their spare time. Let's just say that their promised performance & their actual performance are somewhat separate, mmmmKay?

    If you want to tell me "Bob, Mac had more problems to deal with than Morgan did when he took over", I'd have to ask you: "Are you sure you wana go there?" Coach Mac might have had some turmoil in the roster, but he didn't see his predecessor fired for trolling Mizzou house parties & KSU frat parties for tail on the nights of road games. He didn't have the top assistant of the previous staff fired for insubordination to the AD & the University. He never had to deal with the immediate fallout of an assistant coach who'd rather wax his dolphin to pictures of little girls than spend time, you know, actually coaching. Plus, I must have missed the star player from Morgan's squad who got busted for booze & pot in his car right before the coaching transition.

    If you want to tell me "Bob, Mac has a system that works, instead of a playground style", I'd have to ask "Are you sure you wanna go there?" Coach Mac might have a system, but it's apparently more classified than nuclear missile launch codes, because I've never seen it. Our system so far has consisted of players like Taylor coming down court & throwing up shots like they're auditioning for the lead role in "The Ricky Davis Story". Either that, or we stand around while the shot clock ticks down to five seconds, and then try to cram 20 seconds of plays into the remaining time.

    If you want to tell me "Bob, Morgan had thugs on campus", I'd have to ask "Are you sure you wanna go there?" I lived in Larch Hall in the late 80's. I played poker with Terry Woods. I watched people read the ISU articles in the Register's "Big Peach" to Lafester Rhodes, because he didn't want to admit that he couldn't read it himself. I almost got into a freakin' fight with Sam Mack one night (not my fault, my RA decided to confront him & try to exert some authority, and he mistakenly thought I'd back him up). And Darryl Spinks? Don't even ask me about him. I've seen thugs, and the players under Morgan were about as intimidating as a rampaging gang of first graders by comparison to Johnny's players. Plus, Taylor managed to have about as many infractions himself in his 15 months on the ISU campus as the freakin' Indiana Pacers. Who recruited Taylor?

    If you want to tell me "Mac has a good record in the NCAA tourney", I'd have to say "Are you sure you wanna go there?" He did really well, playing against Valley teams, but how's he doing at ISU? Unless we get some divine intervention, we're gonna be oh-fer-three in tournaments of ANY TYPE. Morgan managed to go to the NIT final four & the second round of the NCAA's (where he lost after playing gamely against the eventual National Champs in their own backyard) in three years.

    I like Mac. I think he's a good coach, but I'm starting to think that my original impression was correct: He's not ready for the Big Time yet. ISU doesn't play in the Valley. Instead of Southern Illinois & Missouri State, we play road games at Texas and Kansas.

    And while I'm at it, has that clown Doyel from CBS Sportsline ever done any followup stories on the D1 Scheduling "scandal"? Before Morgan was fired, it was all "You won't believe how much more stuff I've got on this. It'll blow the lid off College Basketball recruiting", but once Morgan got the heave-ho, it all went down the memory hole.

    You might wonder why I'm bringing up Coach Morgan so much in this post about Coach Mac. Fair enough. If ISU doesn't have a major breakout year in '08/'09, Mac will have a worse record than Morgan, with ZERO tournament wins. Zero wins? Yeah, it's kind of hard to win a game in a tournament you're not invited to enter. Is Pollard reading Mac the riot act right now? Is he on notice that losing more players is UNACCEPTABLE at a school where player turnover is starting to resemble Paris Hilton's dating life? If he's not on the hot seat, asking "Why did you treat Morgan any differently" is a fair question.

    I don't want to be down on Mac. I want to believe. But I remain convinced that a fan who believes in one had and craps in the other will need a big bottle of high-quality soap long before he needs to buy any "Big 12 Championship" swag. Want to convince me that Mac's the right guy? Let's see ISU start winning, and keeping players in town for more than a lunchbreak. Then I'll be at the head of the line of fanatics asking Pollard to give Mac an extension.

    Sorry about doing a "drive-by", but I've got to get some work done this afternoon. I'll drop by later tonight to respond to whoever posts here, so please don't think I'm blowing you off. Hopefully, I can keep my spirits up enough to keep posting here until I finally get the taste of the "Mongolian Goat Rodeo" that was the CycloneNation message boards out of my mouth.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Good to have you over here CYlent Bob - always enjoyed your posts/articles on CN.

    I can't say I agree with everything you posted here and of course reading yet another new WJ thread - but I am quite nervous about the state of our program.


    Last edited by ISUFan22; 05-20-2008 at 01:12 PM.

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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    BOB! Glad to have you aboard.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    This opinion is not meant as a support statement for GMac because I've been begging for his teams to give me some glimmer of hope during his time here and I just have not seen it.

    Having said that, I can't believe so many think Morgan's teams were "all that". They were painful to watch as they stuck in that 2-3 zone and just got KILLED by little white guys from no name teams shooting 3 after 3 after 3. Offensively it was all one on one, break your man down and chuck up a shot or 1st good look from 3 then chuck up a shot.

    Morgan was no worse than GMac, but he certainly wasn't any better either. I know you all will point to the NIT final 4 and NCAA berth. Morgan's style of play caught the Big 12 off guard the year of the NCAA run. Once teams adapted and understood our defense we were helpless as we saw in Wayne's last year. It was not going to get better under Wayne.

    This program started collapsing the day Floyd walked out the door to the Bulls. LE caught lightning in a bottle and that makes most believe he was the second coming, but LE had many more problems than most want to admit. He was not good for ISU even thought the program "peaked" under him in terms of wins.

    It will be difficult to put a consistant winner on the floor at ISU at this point regardless of coach.

    I'm not Gmac bashing, WM bashing, or LE bashing. I'm pointing out what my observations are as a general commentary. You can agree or disagree.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    I do remember you Bob, didn't you do the "Putting lipstick on a pig" thing? That was fun.

    I don't think you could have summed up my thoughts any better. Gold star.

    Of course all I can think about is the "waxing the dolphin" phrase.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Quote Originally Posted by CYlent Bob View Post
    Hey, long time lurker here. If anyone remembers me from the old CN board, I've been quiet for about a year & a half due to being fed up with all the CN Board Drama - but this WJ issue made me re-register & log in to give my $0.02 worth.

    Do I blame Wesley for leaving ISU? Unless I hear that he "bigtimed" ISU on his way out the door, I'm going to wish him well at his new school & remember him as a good kid who worked his *** off for ISU while he was here.

    Do I blame Coach Mac for Wesley leaving? Let's wait for the facts. I like Coach Mac, and I think he's a good person. I don't want to blame him for this unless I can't help it, so I'll cross that bridge when I get more facts.

    What does concern me? The direction of ISU men's basketball. When Wayne Morgan was fired, we were promised everything short of the moon and a National Championship when Greg McD was hired. His players were supposed to go to class, get good grades, stay out of trouble, play unselfish ball within the system, help old ladies across Lincoln Way with their groceries, and solve the "Global Warming" problem in their spare time. Let's just say that their promised performance & their actual performance are somewhat separate, mmmmKay?

    If you want to tell me "Bob, Mac had more problems to deal with than Morgan did when he took over", I'd have to ask you: "Are you sure you wana go there?" Coach Mac might have had some turmoil in the roster, but he didn't see his predecessor fired for trolling Mizzou house parties & KSU frat parties for tail on the nights of road games. He didn't have the top assistant of the previous staff fired for insubordination to the AD & the University. He never had to deal with the immediate fallout of an assistant coach who'd rather wax his dolphin to pictures of little girls than spend time, you know, actually coaching. Plus, I must have missed the star player from Morgan's squad who got busted for booze & pot in his car right before the coaching transition.

    If you want to tell me "Bob, Mac has a system that works, instead of a playground style", I'd have to ask "Are you sure you wanna go there?" Coach Mac might have a system, but it's apparently more classified than nuclear missile launch codes, because I've never seen it. Our system so far has consisted of players like Taylor coming down court & throwing up shots like they're auditioning for the lead role in "The Ricky Davis Story". Either that, or we stand around while the shot clock ticks down to five seconds, and then try to cram 20 seconds of plays into the remaining time.

    If you want to tell me "Bob, Morgan had thugs on campus", I'd have to ask "Are you sure you wanna go there?" I lived in Larch Hall in the late 80's. I played poker with Terry Woods. I watched people read the ISU articles in the Register's "Big Peach" to Lafester Rhodes, because he didn't want to admit that he couldn't read it himself. I almost got into a freakin' fight with Sam Mack one night (not my fault, my RA decided to confront him & try to exert some authority, and he mistakenly thought I'd back him up). And Darryl Spinks? Don't even ask me about him. I've seen thugs, and the players under Morgan were about as intimidating as a rampaging gang of first graders by comparison to Johnny's players. Plus, Taylor managed to have about as many infractions himself in his 15 months on the ISU campus as the freakin' Indiana Pacers. Who recruited Taylor?

    If you want to tell me "Mac has a good record in the NCAA tourney", I'd have to say "Are you sure you wanna go there?" He did really well, playing against Valley teams, but how's he doing at ISU? Unless we get some divine intervention, we're gonna be oh-fer-three in tournaments of ANY TYPE. Morgan managed to go to the NIT final four & the second round of the NCAA's (where he lost after playing gamely against the eventual National Champs in their own backyard) in three years.

    I like Mac. I think he's a good coach, but I'm starting to think that my original impression was correct: He's not ready for the Big Time yet. ISU doesn't play in the Valley. Instead of Southern Illinois & Missouri State, we play road games at Texas and Kansas.

    And while I'm at it, has that clown Doyel from CBS Sportsline ever done any followup stories on the D1 Scheduling "scandal"? Before Morgan was fired, it was all "You won't believe how much more stuff I've got on this. It'll blow the lid off College Basketball recruiting", but once Morgan got the heave-ho, it all went down the memory hole.

    You might wonder why I'm bringing up Coach Morgan so much in this post about Coach Mac. Fair enough. If ISU doesn't have a major breakout year in '08/'09, Mac will have a worse record than Morgan, with ZERO tournament wins. Zero wins? Yeah, it's kind of hard to win a game in a tournament you're not invited to enter. Is Pollard reading Mac the riot act right now? Is he on notice that losing more players is UNACCEPTABLE at a school where player turnover is starting to resemble Paris Hilton's dating life? If he's not on the hot seat, asking "Why did you treat Morgan any differently" is a fair question.

    I don't want to be down on Mac. I want to believe. But I remain convinced that a fan who believes in one had and craps in the other will need a big bottle of high-quality soap long before he needs to buy any "Big 12 Championship" swag. Want to convince me that Mac's the right guy? Let's see ISU start winning, and keeping players in town for more than a lunchbreak. Then I'll be at the head of the line of fanatics asking Pollard to give Mac an extension.

    Sorry about doing a "drive-by", but I've got to get some work done this afternoon. I'll drop by later tonight to respond to whoever posts here, so please don't think I'm blowing you off. Hopefully, I can keep my spirits up enough to keep posting here until I finally get the taste of the "Mongolian Goat Rodeo" that was the CycloneNation message boards out of my mouth.
    What's next ISC going to show up, along with Dex?

    Good to see you again.


    As far as depth goes though, the combination of White, Woodbury, Olaseni, Basabe, and Uthoff is much better than Niang, Ejim, Edozie, Gibson. Not because of the top 2, but because of the next 2 or 3. -DeanVogs

  7. #7
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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Quote Originally Posted by jmb View Post
    What's next ISC going to show up, along with Dex?

    Good to see you again.

    Be careful what you wish for, jmb. I was going to bring BojiHawk along with me, but I wasn't sure if he'd still play well with others, especially Clone Fans.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Glad to hear from you Cylent Bob, I always enjoyed your posts over at CN. You were definitely one of the more eloquent writers there.

    I can't say that I agree with everything you say but you make some valid points. I am definitely in the GMac camp and think we just need to be patient. As far as the defections, I think a coach takes more chances on players early on than they would a couple years down the road. We have to remember that GMac only completed year 2 and was behind the recruiting timeline when he started. Let's see what happens.



  9. #9
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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Quote Originally Posted by CYlent Bob View Post
    Be careful what you wish for, jmb. I was going to bring BojiHawk along with me, but I wasn't sure if he'd still play well with others, especially Clone Fans.
    I haven't talked to Brad in a couple of years...he would definitley bring some comic relief, but I think that he might offend some folks pretty darn quickly around here.

    j

    p.s. I think I still have his email address.


    As far as depth goes though, the combination of White, Woodbury, Olaseni, Basabe, and Uthoff is much better than Niang, Ejim, Edozie, Gibson. Not because of the top 2, but because of the next 2 or 3. -DeanVogs

  10. #10
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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Quote Originally Posted by CYlent Bob View Post
    Be careful what you wish for, jmb. I was going to bring BojiHawk along with me, but I wasn't sure if he'd still play well with others, especially Clone Fans.
    It's really good you didn't.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    I liked Boji, but he didn't pull punches.



  12. #12
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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    You know what would be "fun". Let's get both BojiHawk AND grayer to come over here to CF. That would be "interesting". Sort of like a NASCAR race where some psycho with a sniper rifle keeps shooting out tires on turn #3.

    (grayer still comes over to tailgate with us at football games. He's good people.)



  13. #13
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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Quote Originally Posted by jmb View Post
    What's next ISC going to show up, along with Dex?

    Good to see you again.
    I was wondering if Dex was on here under a different moniker. He had like 3 over there.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Quote Originally Posted by CYlent Bob View Post
    If you want to tell me "Bob, Mac has a system that works, instead of a playground style", I'd have to ask "Are you sure you wanna go there?" Coach Mac might have a system, but it's apparently more classified than nuclear missile launch codes, because I've never seen it. Our system so far has consisted of players like Taylor coming down court & throwing up shots like they're auditioning for the lead role in "The Ricky Davis Story". Either that, or we stand around while the shot clock ticks down to five seconds, and then try to cram 20 seconds of plays into the remaining time.
    Love this paragraph. It's the combination of on and off court head scratchers that has made me more cynical than a lot of others.



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    Re: I'm gonna wait & see what the facts are (WJ-related)

    Enough of the "Mac hasn't done as much as Wayne" comments. My goodness. As Mac says, the ISU program wasn't at rock bottom when he took the job. It was a month later when everyone left. You're arguing apples vs. oranges when you compare Wayne's first two years with Mac's. If it wasn't for Wayne's shady tactics, Mac wouldn't even be here.



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