Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35
  1. #1
    Speechless
    Points: 400,731, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 50.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Wesley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Omaha
    Posts
    59,318
    Points
    400,731
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 614
    Given: 389

    The End is Near?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/29/sc...html?th&emc=th
    Asking a Judge to Save the World, and Maybe a Whole Lot More
    Valerio Mezzanotti for The New York Times
    Part of a detector to study results of proton collisions by a particle accelerator that a federal lawsuit filed in Hawaii seeks to stop.

    By DENNIS OVERBYE
    Published: March 29, 2008
    More fighting in Iraq. Somalia in chaos. People in this country can’t afford their mortgages and in some places now they can’t even afford rice.
    None of this nor the rest of the grimness on the front page today will matter a bit, though, if two men pursuing a lawsuit in federal court in Hawaii turn out to be right. They think a giant particle accelerator that will begin smashing protons together outside Geneva this summer might produce a black hole or something else that will spell the end of the Earth — and maybe the universe.




    Scientists say that is very unlikely — though they have done some checking just to make sure.
    The world’s physicists have spent 14 years and $8 billion building the Large Hadron Collider, in which the colliding protons will recreate energies and conditions last seen a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. Researchers will sift the debris from these primordial recreations for clues to the nature of mass and new forces and symmetries of nature.
    But Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho contend that scientists at the European Center for Nuclear Research, or CERN, have played down the chances that the collider could produce, among other horrors, a tiny black hole, which, they say, could eat the Earth. Or it could spit out something called a “strangelet” that would convert our planet to a shrunken dense dead lump of something called “strange matter.” Their suit also says CERN has failed to provide an environmental impact statement as required under the National Environmental Policy Act.
    Although it sounds bizarre, the case touches on a serious issue that has bothered scholars and scientists in recent years — namely how to estimate the risk of new groundbreaking experiments and who gets to decide whether or not to go ahead.
    The lawsuit, filed March 21 in Federal District Court, in Honolulu, seeks a temporary restraining order prohibiting CERN from proceeding with the accelerator until it has produced a safety report and an environmental assessment. It names the federal Department of Energy, the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, the National Science Foundation and CERN as defendants.
    According to a spokesman for the Justice Department, which is representing the Department of Energy, a scheduling meeting has been set for June 16.
    Why should CERN, an organization of European nations based in Switzerland, even show up in a Hawaiian courtroom?
    In an interview, Mr. Wagner said, “I don’t know if they’re going to show up.” CERN would have to voluntarily submit to the court’s jurisdiction, he said, adding that he and Mr. Sancho could have sued in France or Switzerland, but to save expenses they had added CERN to the docket here. He claimed that a restraining order on Fermilab and the Energy Department, which helps to supply and maintain the accelerator’s massive superconducting magnets, would shut down the project anyway.
    James Gillies, head of communications at CERN, said the laboratory as of yet had no comment on the suit. “It’s hard to see how a district court in Hawaii has jurisdiction over an intergovernmental organization in Europe,” Mr. Gillies said.
    “There is nothing new to suggest that the L.H.C. is unsafe,” he said, adding that its safety had been confirmed by two reports, with a third on the way, and would be the subject of a discussion during an open house at the lab on April 6.
    Scientifically, we’re not hiding away,” he said.
    But Mr. Wagner is not mollified. “They’ve got a lot of propaganda saying it’s safe,” he said in an interview, “but basically it’s propaganda.”
    In an e-mail message, Mr. Wagner called the CERN safety review “fundamentally flawed” and said it had been initiated too late. The review process violates the European Commission’s standards for adhering to the “Precautionary Principle,” he wrote, “and has not been done by ‘arms length’ scientists.”
    Physicists in and out of CERN say a variety of studies, including an official CERN report in 2003, have concluded there is no problem. But just to be sure, last year the anonymous Safety Assessment Group was set up to do the review again.
    “The possibility that a black hole eats up the Earth is too serious a threat to leave it as a matter of argument among crackpots,” said Michelangelo Mangano, a CERN theorist who said he was part of the group. The others prefer to remain anonymous, Mr. Mangano said, for various reasons. Their report was due in January.
    This is not the first time around for Mr. Wagner. He filed similar suits in 1999 and 2000 to prevent the Brookhaven National Laboratory from operating the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider. That suit was dismissed in 2001. The collider, which smashes together gold ions in the hopes of creating what is called a “quark-gluon plasma,” has been operating without incident since 2000.

    Mr. Wagner, who lives on the Big Island of Hawaii, studied physics and did cosmic ray research at the University of California, Berkeley, and received a doctorate in law from what is now known as the University of Northern California in Sacramento. He subsequently worked as a radiation safety officer for the Veterans Administration.
    Mr. Sancho, who describes himself as an author and researcher on time theory, lives in Spain, probably in Barcelona, Mr. Wagner said.




    Doomsday fears have a long, if not distinguished, pedigree in the history of physics. At Los Alamos before the first nuclear bomb was tested, Emil Konopinski was given the job of calculating whether or not the explosion would set the atmosphere on fire.
    The Large Hadron Collider is designed to fire up protons to energies of seven trillion electron volts before banging them together. Nothing, indeed, will happen in the CERN collider that does not happen 100,000 times a day from cosmic rays in the atmosphere, said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a particle theorist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton.
    What is different, physicists admit, is that the fragments from cosmic rays will go shooting harmlessly through the Earth at nearly the speed of light, but anything created when the beams meet head-on in the collider will be born at rest relative to the laboratory and so will stick around and thus could create havoc.
    The new worries are about black holes, which, according to some variants of string theory, could appear at the collider. That possibility, though a long shot, has been widely ballyhooed in many papers and popular articles in the last few years, but would they be dangerous?
    According to a paper by the cosmologist Stephen Hawking in 1974, they would rapidly evaporate in a poof of radiation and elementary particles, and thus pose no threat. No one, though, has seen a black hole evaporate.
    As a result, Mr. Wagner and Mr. Sancho contend in their complaint, black holes could really be stable, and a micro black hole created by the collider could grow, eventually swallowing the Earth.
    But William Unruh, of the University of British Columbia, whose paper exploring the limits of Dr. Hawking’s radiation process was referenced on Mr. Wagner’s Web site, said they had missed his point. “Maybe physics really is so weird as to not have black holes evaporate,” he said. “But it would really, really have to be weird.”
    Lisa Randall, a Harvard physicist whose work helped fuel the speculation about black holes at the collider, pointed out in a paper last year that black holes would probably not be produced at the collider after all, although other effects of so-called quantum gravity might appear.
    As part of the safety assessment report, Dr. Mangano and Steve Giddings of the University of California, Santa Barbara, have been working intensely for the last few months on a paper exploring all the possibilities of these fearsome black holes. They think there are no problems but are reluctant to talk about their findings until they have been peer reviewed, Dr. Mangano said.
    Dr. Arkani-Hamed said concerning worries about the death of the Earth or universe, “Neither has any merit.” He pointed out that because of the dice-throwing nature of quantum physics, there was some probability of almost anything happening. There is some minuscule probability, he said, “the Large Hadron Collider might make dragons that might eat us up.”


    Last edited by Wesley; 03-31-2008 at 01:24 PM.
    Let my Fred's Posse Ride: Georges, Naz, Hogue, Bryce, Nader, Monte, Matt, and McKay.

  2. #2
    Legend
    Points: 389,768, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    23,849
    Points
    389,768
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 590
    Given: 425

    Re: The End is Near?

    Why do we research such things? Is it part of our struggle to control everything?



  3. #3
    Addict
    Points: 80,935, Level: 88
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 1,015
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    jumbopackage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,473
    Points
    80,935
    Level
    88
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 21
    Given: 10

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by bostinelosd View Post
    Why do we research such things? Is it part of our struggle to control everything?
    No, it's part of our struggle to understand everything.



  4. #4
    Legend
    Points: 389,768, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    23,849
    Points
    389,768
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 590
    Given: 425

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by jumbopackage View Post
    No, it's part of our struggle to understand everything.

    This stuff is freaky. They arent messing with minor things. The big bang wasnt a firecracker and they are trying to recreate such events in a warehouse.



  5. #5
    Addict
    Points: 177,730, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 4.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    snowcraig2.0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts
    7,423
    Points
    177,730
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 460
    Given: 76

    Re: The End is Near?

    That is scary. It's only a matter of time before we wipe ourselves out one way or another. I just hope we get back to a bowl game or the big dance first. :)



  6. #6
    Legend
    Points: 169,204, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 14.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    The_Architect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Focus Town
    Posts
    11,639
    Points
    169,204
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 358
    Given: 1,405

    Re: The End is Near?

    Man, that hurts my head to read.


    While on live TV, Ford used a vulgar term to describe a private part of the female anatomy, adding that he was “happily married” and “got more than enough to eat at home.”

  7. #7
    Pro
    Points: 119,141, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    balken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,643
    Points
    119,141
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 4
    Given: 0

    Re: The End is Near?

    I'm going to have to keep my particle accelerator project on the down low.



  8. #8
    cyclONEnation
    Points: 236,614, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 1.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    C.John's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    15,437
    Points
    236,614
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 55
    Given: 47

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
    Man, that hurts my head to read.
    Completely over my pay scale.



  9. #9
    Addict
    Points: 80,935, Level: 88
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 1,015
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    jumbopackage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,473
    Points
    80,935
    Level
    88
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 21
    Given: 10

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by bostinelosd View Post
    This stuff is freaky. They arent messing with minor things. The big bang wasnt a firecracker and they are trying to recreate such events in a warehouse.
    Yes, they are messing with very minor things. Subatomic particles even.

    They aren't trying to re-create the big bang, they are just trying to re-create the conditions slightly after it so that they can better understand the nature of subatomic particles at very high energy levels.

    It's not really scary. Far less so than, say, developing the A-bomb. There was legitimate concern that the A-bomb would torch the atmosphere at one point.



  10. #10
    Swarm & Punish
    Points: 288,746, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 31.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranCreated Album pictures50000 Experience Points
    keepngoal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    20,046
    Points
    288,746
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 554
    Given: 1,069

    Re: The End is Near?

    time to bring the credit cards out of the safe... and light them up to the MAX BABY!!!!!

    Free living!!! the world is ending I won't have to pay for a thing!!!

    unless they are wrong.

    -keep.


    The first and best victory is to conquer self; to be conquered by self is of all things most shameful and vile. - Plato

    May you only need 39 acres to turn your rig around. - keep

  11. #11
    Addict
    Points: 93,595, Level: 95
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 1,455
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    cytech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Hiawatha, Iowa
    Posts
    6,203
    Points
    93,595
    Level
    95
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 11
    Given: 7

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by bostinelosd View Post
    This stuff is freaky. They arent messing with minor things. The big bang wasnt a firecracker and they are trying to recreate such events in a warehouse.
    Actually most of it is underground I saw something on the history or discovery channel about it.

    The fact we have the knowledge and know how to build such things is amazing. And I imagine we can learn alot from such devices, I look forward to seeing what happens



  12. #12
    Legend
    Points: 169,204, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 14.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    The_Architect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Focus Town
    Posts
    11,639
    Points
    169,204
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 358
    Given: 1,405

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by keepngoal View Post
    time to bring the credit cards out of the safe... and light them up to the MAX BABY!!!!!

    Free living!!! the world is ending I won't have to pay for a thing!!!

    unless they are wrong.

    -keep.
    Kind of like Steve Buschemi's character in Armageddon, lol.


    Last edited by The_Architect; 03-31-2008 at 01:24 PM.
    While on live TV, Ford used a vulgar term to describe a private part of the female anatomy, adding that he was “happily married” and “got more than enough to eat at home.”

  13. #13
    Legend
    Points: 389,768, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    23,849
    Points
    389,768
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 590
    Given: 425

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by cytech View Post
    Actually most of it is underground I saw something on the history or discovery channel about it.

    The fact we have the knowledge and know how to build such things is amazing. And I imagine we can learn alot from such devices, I look forward to seeing what happens

    I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but how much goes on that we dont know about? Like the cloning thing. We make it illegal to clone humans, but you know someone is doing it somewhere. Its not so much what we see that is scary, its what we dont.



  14. #14
    All-Star
    Points: 17,268, Level: 40
    Level completed: 3%, Points required for next Level: 782
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranCreated Album pictures10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ames
    Posts
    1,599
    Points
    17,268
    Level
    40
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 0
    Given: 0

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by bostinelosd View Post
    I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but how much goes on that we dont know about? Like the cloning thing. We make it illegal to clone humans, but you know someone is doing it somewhere. Its not so much what we see that is scary, its what we dont.

    What's wrong with cloning people? If we do we can farm them for resources...


    All things flow according to the whims of the great magnet.

    "You know, that might be the answer - to act boastfully about something we ought to be ashamed of. That's a trick that never seems to fail."

  15. #15
    Rookie
    Points: 10,628, Level: 31
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 622
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    521
    Points
    10,628
    Level
    31
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 16
    Given: 3

    Re: The End is Near?

    Quote Originally Posted by ISUCyclones View Post
    What's wrong with cloning people? If we do we can farm them for resources...
    If that happens are we really going to have to depend on Keanu Reeves and Laurence Fishburne to save us?



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • TV: TBD
  • Iowa State vs. Oklahoma
  • November 1, 2014
  • 07:00 PM