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  1. #16
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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    You guys aren't getting it. Where are the best recruits going right now? They are already going to those programs. They will just get paid more by going to them now. When's the last time we beat those guys for a recruit under the current system? The recruit distribution would be the same. There are only so many spots at those schools. It's not like they can just pay however many players they want and it wouldn't surprise me to see scholarship limits reduced slightly actually increasing parity.
    I believe Lazard is on campus right now.

    We get it just fine. It's not just that we can't afford them. It's that they can afford MORE.

    Sure - we and the other bottom 90 schools get the scraps - mostly cause of playing time, or some other loyalty. But again, money will change that.

    Let me just ask straight out. Are you advocating that players get paid something (evenly), or get paid based on some marketing value?

    What does scholarship limit have to do with this? You're paying kids. So you just pay them to pay their own way.



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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    You guys aren't getting it. Where are the best recruits going right now? They are already going to those programs. They will just get paid more by going to them now. When's the last time we beat those guys for a recruit under the current system? The recruit distribution would be the same. There are only so many spots at those schools. It's not like they can just pay however many players they want and it wouldn't surprise me to see scholarship limits reduced slightly actually increasing parity.
    So you think Lazard signs with ISU if Notre Dame can offer him a lot more money? That's just the ISU example, there are dozens of schools that aren't elite that get a couple top recruits every year. Does that still happen if they can't pay as much as the elite schools? Of course not.

    The elite schools will get even more of the top recruits unless you can figure out how to cap it a price most schools can afford to pay. In the list of priorities money would be #1, creating a new huge advantage for the big schools.


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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    Paying players is actually an equalizer (especially if done with a salary cap). Look at recruiting the past 30-50 years- it is not an open market now, as the currencies are tradition, location, and arms-race spending. Paying players removes barriers to entry. It is a lot easier for a school to sneak in a better offer last minute than change tradition or location.
    Paying players isn't going to equalize anything. The traditional powers that have all those things you mention going for them also typically have the most money, and will be able to pay the most. ISU isn't all of a sudden going to be able to "out-stipend" UT, OU, or any other current power team in order to snag 5-star recruits.


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  4. #19
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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyFive View Post
    The only model that works IMO is the so-called Division 4, where total revenue is spilt evenly and divided among everyone on that level equally. Every athlete and every school receives the same amount, sort of like the NFL's merchandise agreement. Do the Cowboys sell more stuff/generate more interest than the Jags? Of course they so. All teams divide it evenly though. Without an agreement like this, the same universities that can offer the most money will always dominate recruiting and any semblance of a fair competition is out the door.

    I dont think any of this ever happens though. Schools like Texas make it's money, schools like Texas will want to keep its money.
    I meant to ask what you just addressed. If I go to nfl.com and purchase a Troy Polomalu jersey - does Troy get a little check for that sale? Or is it dispersed somehow equally? You're saying equally.... That's the only way I see this working in NCAA and not turning into a complete bidding war.

    And say we manage to get a kid who comes in under the radar and blows up into a top player - how does the transfer system not turn into a free agent market? Players are already transferring like never before. Money will only exasperate that further, and programs that develop players will be more apt to lose them.



  5. #20
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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    Paying players is actually an equalizer (especially if done with a salary cap). Look at recruiting the past 30-50 years- it is not an open market now, as the currencies are tradition, location, and arms-race spending. Paying players removes barriers to entry. It is a lot easier for a school to sneak in a better offer last minute than change tradition or location.
    Well - that's what I'm asking. If there's a cap - that's some sort of equality. I'm not really seeing that in many discussions.

    Of course the cap has to be palatable by all institutions. ISU already is suffering in the money wars. Imagine the likes of the smaller conferences in D1


    Last edited by RubyClone; 08-07-2014 at 11:27 AM.

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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman38 View Post
    So you think Lazard signs with ISU if Notre Dame can offer him a lot more money? That's just the ISU example, there are dozens of schools that aren't elite that get a couple top recruits every year. Does that still happen if they can't pay as much as the elite schools? Of course not.

    The elite schools will get even more of the top recruits unless you can figure out how to cap it a price most schools can afford to pay. In the list of priorities money would be #1, creating a new huge advantage for the big schools.
    No they won't. The same 10-15 schools are competing for those top guys the way it is. If they don't go to Bama, they go to USC. If they don't go to aTm, they go to Florida. This isn't going to cause Allen Lazard to go to Notre Dame. The money is and has always been there if he wanted it.


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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by RubyClone View Post
    I believe Lazard is on campus right now.

    We get it just fine. It's not just that we can't afford them. It's that they can afford MORE.

    Sure - we and the other bottom 90 schools get the scraps - mostly cause of playing time, or some other loyalty. But again, money will change that.

    Let me just ask straight out. Are you advocating that players get paid something (evenly), or get paid based on some marketing value?

    What does scholarship limit have to do with this? You're paying kids. So you just pay them to pay their own way.
    I'm not advocating for anything. I'm just saying it won't change recruiting dynamics. It's not like there's some sort of parity increasing measures right now.


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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    I'm not advocating for anything. I'm just saying it won't change recruiting dynamics. It's not like there's some sort of parity increasing measures right now.
    I disagree. It will change recruiting dynamics. A player is going to consider going to a school that can pay more even if it means sitting on the bench instead of playing. They most likely would have gone to a school where they could play but are now going to have to consider not playing and getting paid more to not play.


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  9. #24
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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    I'm not advocating for anything. I'm just saying it won't change recruiting dynamics. It's not like there's some sort of parity increasing measures right now.
    Sure there is. Colleges can offer the exact same thing by rule. Tuition, room and board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    No they won't. The same 10-15 schools are competing for those top guys the way it is. If they don't go to Bama, they go to USC. If they don't go to aTm, they go to Florida. This isn't going to cause Allen Lazard to go to Notre Dame. The money is and has always been there if he wanted it.
    Except it's currently against the rules and he jeapordizes his collegiate career by taking it. Opening the pay for play door changes that dynamic 100%



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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    One can devise all sorts of revenue distribution plans for players, but they will only work as long as everybody on the receiving end is happy. These things work in pro sports because the stars get huge salaries and there is no reason to rock the boat and quibble about revenue distribution from jersey sales. In addition, pro athletes are still able to sign endorsement deals outside of their sport to cash in on their likeness. Most likely nobody is buying jerseys for the guy getting minimum salary, so he has no basis for rocking the boat.

    But that won't be the case in college, where everybody on a team is getting about the same in scholarship, food, book money, etc., and likely eventually a stipend. In any sort of equal distribution model, some star player is going to see his jersey/likeness money going to someone else, but there isn't going to be a superstar salary keeping him from challenging the system to get what is his. Those revenue distribution models will be challenged and struck down in the courts. Once the court rules that a player can market his likeness, there is no legal rationale to limit what he can make off his likeness. Ultimately, the only working model will be one where every player is free to pursue what the market will bear for his likeness.


    Last edited by jbhtexas; 08-07-2014 at 11:38 AM.
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  11. #26
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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by cycloneG View Post
    I disagree. It will change recruiting dynamics. A player is going to consider going to a school that can pay more even if it means sitting on the bench instead of playing. They most likely would have gone to a school where they could play but are now going to have to consider not playing and getting paid more to not play.
    No they won't. That's a ridiculous assertion and like I have stated fifteen times, a school isn't going to recruit a guy to sit on the bench anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by RubyClone View Post
    Sure there is. Colleges can offer the exact same thing by rule. Tuition, room and board.



    Except it's currently against the rules and he jeapordizes his collegiate career by taking it. Opening the pay for play door changes that dynamic 100%

    A scholarship to STanford is not the same as one to ISU. They aren't offering the same thing.


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  12. #27
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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyFive View Post
    The only model that works IMO is the so-called Division 4, where total revenue is spilt evenly and divided among everyone on that level equally. Every athlete and every school receives the same amount, sort of like the NFL's merchandise agreement. Do the Cowboys sell more stuff/generate more interest than the Jags? Of course they so. All teams divide it evenly though. Without an agreement like this, the same universities that can offer the most money will always dominate recruiting and any semblance of a fair competition is out the door.

    I dont think any of this ever happens though. Schools like Texas make it's money, schools like Texas will want to keep its money.
    I don't see how that's fair at all, why should a fourth string TE who brings in no money to a program be paid the same amount as a guy like Johnny Manziel?



  13. #28
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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    No they won't. The same 10-15 schools are competing for those top guys the way it is. If they don't go to Bama, they go to USC. If they don't go to aTm, they go to Florida. This isn't going to cause Allen Lazard to go to Notre Dame. The money is and has always been there if he wanted it.
    You understand you're wrong and it's as easy as google search to find that out right? Look at rivals top 100 list from last year and see how many schools are represented. Yes the top schools get most of them, and adding a new recruiting advantage for them isn't going to hurt them, it will net them even more.


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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    No they won't. That's a ridiculous assertion and like I have stated fifteen times, a school isn't going to recruit a guy to sit on the bench anyway.
    Really? NCAA implemented rules because FB schools were stacking their teams with players by using basketball and other sports scholarships. I think it's easily expected that they'll pay to keep players off other teams. Win, and that money comes flooding back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    A scholarship to STanford is not the same as one to ISU. They aren't offering the same thing.
    And according to Money Magazine - schollie to ISU isn't the same as one to OU, KSU, iowa, Wisc, tOSU, etc - but that doesn't seem to be helping us either.



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    Re: Big XII leading the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    No they won't. That's a ridiculous assertion and like I have stated fifteen times, a school isn't going to recruit a guy to sit on the bench anyway.
    I'm just not sure what you think you're saying. Teams do this now, turns out teams want as many quality players as they can get in case they need them.


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