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  1. #61
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by alarson View Post
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...dants-innocent

    This alone should be reason enough not to have the death penalty legal.

    I dont believe it is ever acceptable to execute an innocent person. I also dont believe our justice system will ever be perfect in that regard. Therefore i dont believe the death penalty should be legal,as much as some of the most guilty might deserve it. Not as a merciful act towards the worst among us, but because of the innocents that do get caught up in the system.
    This sums up my feelings pretty well too. And I'm sure 4% is a very conservative number.

    Also says something when you are in such a minority that you have trouble finding someone that will let you buy the drugs necessary.


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  2. #62
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    The problem with execution is that it is not just executing guilty people, something like 4% of people on death row are innocent. And that is sickening.

    Edit: didn't get to the last two pages before I posted, don't execute me.



  3. #63
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonestate78 View Post
    I don't buy this rehabilitation nonsense.

    Records show that about 77% of felony criminals are repeat offenders with one prior arrest. Of these criminals 35% of them have 10 or more prior arrests.
    A prior arrest could be for anything.

    Also, these stats dont do much considering for the past few decades we've made very little effort to actually rehabilitate. Id wager most come out of prison worse than when they came in, especially when you add background checks being more commonplace for employment making it even harder for them to function in normal society.



  4. #64
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by alarson View Post
    A prior arrest could be for anything.

    Also, these stats dont do much considering for the past few decades we've made very little effort to actually rehabilitate. Id wager most come out of prison worse than when they came in, especially when you add background checks being more commonplace for employment making it even harder for them to function in normal society.
    This is the problem. These criminals don't see prison as a place to be rehabilitated. They see it as a vacation from their criminal activities which they will resume the second they are released. Like you said... in a lot of cases these guys are worse when they get out then they were when they went into the prison system. What could possibly go wrong when you get a bunch of convicts together and let them interact? Yeah... they become more hardcore criminals.

    If they really wanted to rehabilitate these people then each one would be held in solitary confinement. They wouldn't be able to see other inmates, interact with other inmates, etc... Complete solitude is the only way and that is never going to happen in the current prison system.



  5. #65
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by alarson View Post
    Prison is supposed to be more about separating dangers from society than about punishment and wherever possible (some people are obviously unredeemable) rehabilitating them to be contributing members of society. Unfortunately most people seem to have forgotten that.
    Come on. Criminals and rehabilitation shouldn't be used in the same sentence. I mean, I understand what you mean. But there should be a special place in hell for people who rape, or abuse children, or something of that nature. I highly doubt there is any type of infrastructure in place in our prison systems that focus on rehabilitation. What would that even look like?

    I want ant to make the generalization that bad people are bad people, but what defines bad? Our current system invokes too large of a grey area, IMO. Why are child molesters and rapists treated the same way as thieves and drug dealers?



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  6. #66
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonestate78 View Post
    This is the problem. These criminals don't see prison as a place to be rehabilitated. They see it as a vacation from their criminal activities which they will resume the second they are released. Like you said... in a lot of cases these guys are worse when they get out then they were when they went into the prison system. What could possibly go wrong when you get a bunch of convicts together and let them interact? Yeah... they become more hardcore criminals.

    If they really wanted to rehabilitate these people then each one would be held in solitary confinement. They wouldn't be able to see other inmates, interact with other inmates, etc... Complete solitude is the only way and that is never going to happen in the current prison system.
    I agree with everything except them resuming their criminal behavior the second they are released.

    They resume their criminal behavior the second they get to prison.
    Most of them meet up with their affiliated gang inside and resume dealing drugs and plotting their next victim. There are probably a lot of long term/life sentence inmates who enjoy being in prison. Free meals, free shelter, part of a gang, and don't need a job. The only thing they don't have in prison that they would outside is women. But, they don't need that when they have pretty little school boys coming in every day.



  7. #67
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by theantiAIRBHG View Post
    Why are child molesters and rapists treated the same way as thieves and drug dealers?
    This. It's as if the only difference between how these prisoners are handled is based on sentence length. If it's a life sentence or death row they aren't letting them out. If it's anything else like a 30 or 40 year sentence then hell... let's just parole them in 5 so we don't have to deal with them anymore. It's laughable. Look at Michael Klunder... there is absolutely no way in hell that guy should have been released early with his track record. How could anyone look at his history and feel confident he had been rehabilitated? These parole boards are doing society a disservice by being so damn easy on these guys and letting them out early.



  8. #68
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by theantiAIRBHG View Post
    The term, "cruel and unusual punishment" makes zero sense to me. Let's all make sure these horrible people who rape and kill and ruin lives are given fair and humane treatment.
    We are better than these horrible criminals. Intentionally causing pain as a form of vengeance is just barbarism responding to barbarism. I am proud to live in a nation where juries of citizens in courts of law determine justice in a rational and level-headed way.

    Quote Originally Posted by TranCytive View Post
    The problem with execution is that it is not just executing guilty people, something like 4% of people on death row are innocent. And that is sickening.
    This is terrifying and should be the #1 argument against capital punishment IMO. Really needs to be considered by everyone in favor of it.



  9. #69
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by CYphyllis View Post
    Clayton Lockett, whose execution went wrong last night, was sentenced to death following the shocking murder of Stephanie Nieman, 19.

    She was kidnapped, shot twice and buried alive in 1999 a month after she graduated from high school.
    Lockett was involved in a botched raid on a house with two other men belonging to Bobby Bornt when Miss Neiman and another 19-year-old woman walked in.

    Reports from the time said that Mr Bornt owed Lockett money and that he was tied up and beaten during the ordeal.

    Miss Neiman's friend was dragged into the house and hit in the face with a shotgun.

    Under duress, the friend then called Miss Neiman into the home and she was also hit in the face with the gun.

    Her friend was raped by all three men before they were taken to a rural part of Kay County, Oklahoma
    Lockett told them that he was going to kill them all but shot Miss Neiman twice when she refused to give her keys and pickup's alarm code.

    When she was shot dead, she was stood in a shallow grave that had been dug by one of Lockett's accomplices, Shawn Mathis. He told Lockett that Miss Neiman was still alive, but Lockett ordered Mathis to bury her.


    Thanks for the clarification.



  10. #70
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Just want you all to know that you scare the bejeezus out of me...



  11. #71
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by CyFan61 View Post
    This is terrifying and should be the #1 argument against capital punishment IMO. Really needs to be considered by everyone in favor of it.
    This is absolutely correct. My opinion has been for a long time that Capital Punishment is in direct violation of the Due Process clause of the Constitution. When new evidence becomes available, you are denied Due Process if you are dead.



  12. #72
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    You know there are a lot of repeat offenders when 24 states have enacted a form of the "3 Strikes" law. Every state should enact these laws and they should be strict. Obviously an individual that is convicted of multiple felonies has proven without question that there is no hope that they will ever be rehabilitated. They need to lock these people up and throw away the key.

    To me it is amazing that in some states you can commit a murder and they will parole these people. How can anyone be granted their freedom after murdering someone? It's absolutely crazy.



  13. #73
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    The thing that sucks is if you keep them in prison, you find yourself transporting them to another prison and then BAM! You lost them and they're running down Merle Hay handcuffed and escaping for a few hours.

    But I don't think an eye for an eye is necessarily the right answer. If it's a sex offender, don't kill them. Chop their boys off and shove them in a prison cell, where you hope they drop the soap, and they won't be able to do anything about it if someone else drops the soap in front of them. I call it the weiner for an eye method.


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  14. #74
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    This country is too focused on what the punishment should be rather than what the treatment should be. It pisses me off that if you get a felony it basically ruins your chances of getting any meaningful job. Then they expect you to not recommit the crime. I'm strictly speaking of non-violent crimes. Things like selling a lot of drugs.



  15. #75
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    Re: Botched execution in Oklahoma

    I can't believe how many people on here think that prison is some vacation for criminals. Have you ever been to prison? It's a nightmare. Just because you watched Shawshank Redemption a few times doesn't mean that you are an expert on the prison system in this country.


    Last edited by Peter; 04-30-2014 at 05:12 PM.

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