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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by AWOL2000 View Post
    Agree with clonedogg but one thing to note is by all accounts that I have seen and heard the attitude within the players is better this year. It's amazing what a difference that can make. Doesn't mean that it will but if all things are equal as could be possible just a better attitude may make them better as a unit.
    It's amazing how much attitude changed once a certain someone was fired.



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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by TranCytive View Post
    It's amazing how much attitude changed once a certain someone was fired.
    Yes that was the reference. Plus the other guy who left. If the D has more confidence in the O we should be better.


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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    I'll keep my believe it when I see it outlook on tailgating season.



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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clonedogg View Post
    Sometimes I just don't get the eternal optimism of some people about our football team, God bless you, but I don't get it. The defense, which wasn't good, lost 7 of 11 starters from last year Jensen, Irving, Scott, George, Watson, Washington, and Broomfield along with some key contributors in Coe and Rogers. The guys that are going to be starting this year could not beat them out last year, there is a VERY small chance they will be better than the guys that started last year! 90% (guesstimate) of the time this happens, with the off season work they will be, AT MOST, as good as the guy they replaced, rarely are they better. The coaches know this, they went out and signed six juco players for defense, the cupboard is thin. Maybe by mid-season will those jucos bear fruit.

    'All's I'm sayin' is lower your expectations a little (a lot) so you can enjoy the season on defense for what it will be, a rebuild.

    Edit: By the way, I hope I'm completely WRONG!

    Back away from the cliff Clonedogg:) Regarding the seniors that you mentioned that I highlighted, that's how it works. I mean those guys paid their dues then got to play as seniors, so saying that youngsters who were 2 classes behind them are not talented, I don't buy. They usually are not developed or understand Wally's scheme well enough yet (because they haven't had the reps). You don't want young guys beating out older ones, so I don't make much of their replacements not being as talented. Time will tell. Losing Jensen & Coe hurts the worst IMO because of their size. Irving never really impressed me much, and I do question the effort of both of them as it turns out, and so did CPR.

    So we have huge gaps to fill at MLB, DT, need to find 2 solid guys at S, and need a backup NG. Those pieces are key. We can afford to get depth at CB from true freshmen as we have had to do that in the past. I do agree with you on one front, that we are unproven and inexperienced. Talented? We will find out. Best guess is that defense will be get run over if Wally does not get imaginative, but I think you'll see us bring pressure a LOT more to take the stress off our DL and try to get off the field. Instead of bend but don't break, I think you will see a defensive mentality that is "Boom or Bust." Some games that will help us, others we will get burned by it.

    And further, I think the guys that were bolded, were very good players who had an offense that kept them on the field twice as long as they should have.


    Last edited by DuckDynastyCy; 04-19-2014 at 06:11 PM.
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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Knott looked quite good when healthy last season and is likely to be a bit bigger/stronger/faster this year.
    I might have a quibble with this statement, considering that following what appears to be substantial hip surgery, I'm guessing he will have been limited in just how much stress he can put on his whole body--and thus working out. '15, yes, but I'm not counting on him being "bigger, stronger, faster" this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clonedogg View Post
    Sometimes I just don't get the eternal optimism of some people about our football team, God bless you, but I don't get it. The defense, which wasn't good, lost 7 of 11 starters from last year Jensen, Irving, Scott, George, Watson, Washington, and Broomfield along with some key contributors in Coe and Rogers. The guys that are going to be starting this year could not beat them out last year, there is a VERY small chance they will be better than the guys that started last year! 90% (guesstimate) of the time this happens, with the off season work they will be, AT MOST, as good as the guy they replaced, rarely are they better. The coaches know this, they went out and signed six juco players for defense, the cupboard is thin. Maybe by mid-season will those jucos bear fruit.
    I don't get the bolded statement. I keep seeing people say things like that, but that's the nature of college football. That new players replace guys that they "couldn't beat out" (mostly, were simply younger and more inexperienced than), and often are better.

    One question I'd have for CW is whether CPR and Co actually have any schollie slots left to add another late player. I'd kinda think that if they did, they'd already have gotten back in touch with Malou, who isn't a nose tackle, but with Irving gone, too, something is better than nothing.




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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuckDynastyCy View Post
    Back away from the cliff Clonedogg:) Regarding the seniors that you mentioned that I highlighted, Scott, George, Watson, Washington, and Broomfield, that's how it works. I mean those guys paid their dues then got to play as seniors,

    And further, I think the guys that were bolded, were very good players who had an offense that kept them on the field twice as long as they should have.
    I agree with you to an extent but Washington was a 3 year starter, Scott was a 2 year starter, Watson a 2 year starter. George would of been a bigger piece if we didn't have NFL talent in his position, he was better than your normal 1st time Senior year starter. I'll concede Broomfield and Scott as replaceable talent. Watson had a lot of talent diminished by being injury prone, but I don't know if the guys replacing him will be better, this year, than him.

    But my main point is, THIS year, I'm not debating the young guys talent potential maybe higher in the long run. But will they be better in one year than the guy they couldn't beat out, probably not, as good, maybe.



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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clonedogg View Post
    I agree with you to an extent but Washington was a 3 year starter, Scott was a 2 year starter, Watson a 2 year starter. George would of been a bigger piece if we didn't have NFL talent in his position, he was better than your normal 1st time Senior year starter. I'll concede Broomfield and Scott as replaceable talent. Watson had a lot of talent diminished by being injury prone, but I don't know if the guys replacing him will be better, this year, than him.

    But my main point is, THIS year, I'm not debating the young guys talent potential maybe higher in the long run. But will they be better in one year than the guy they couldn't beat out, probably not, as good, maybe.

    Yeah, I agree, Watson was excellent when he played. Tribune has potential, but agree that Jansen was probably better in his junior year than Tribune will be in his sophomore year. I think the key piece is getting another NG. If we can do that and keep he and Cousin healthy so they can split snaps, with Trent splitting time as a backup NG and DT, I think that could work with him, Ayeni and Aka at DT, along with Garcia. You can be young at CB and succeed, but you normally cannot be young at DT/NG and succeed. Those guys will have to grow up quick inside and be able to stop the run.


    Last edited by DuckDynastyCy; 04-19-2014 at 07:13 PM.
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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clonedogg View Post
    Sometimes I just don't get the eternal optimism of some people about our football team, God bless you, but I don't get it. The defense, which wasn't good, lost 7 of 11 starters from last year Jensen, Irving, Scott, George, Watson, Washington, and Broomfield along with some key contributors in Coe and Rogers. The guys that are going to be starting this year could not beat them out last year, there is a VERY small chance they will be better than the guys that started last year! 90% (guesstimate) of the time this happens, with the off season work they will be, AT MOST, as good as the guy they replaced, rarely are they better. The coaches know this, they went out and signed six juco players for defense, the cupboard is thin. Maybe by mid-season will those jucos bear fruit.

    'All's I'm sayin' is lower your expectations a little (a lot) so you can enjoy the season on defense for what it will be, a rebuild.

    Edit: By the way, I hope I'm completely WRONG!
    Honestly, the defense was horrible last year, especially to start the season. It really would not take a lot to be better at several positions. DL may be a disaster. At this point we do not know what will happen. I think that the bend but don't break defense will be gone this year, so look for less long drives and more long plays given up. Hopefully there will be enough stops to rest a thin defense, and enough punch in the offense to eliminate the multiple 3 and outs to start games.



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    Did We Lose Alot?

    I have concerns about our defense because we lack experience. However, I don't feel there is a drop in talent. IMO George and Coe are the only significant losses. George because of his production we need to replace and Coe because of potential he showed in the last 2-3 games of last season. Jenson, Scott, Broomfield and Watson were nice players and Cyclones for life- but they were not all Big 12 like Knott and Klein. Irving was an enigma; physically talented- but not much production. I think his replacement will have more than 19 tackles.

    I think the key to our defense will be getting solid play from Harris, Miller and Meeks. If two of those guys start, we will have two LB's over 240lbs. Hopefully, that will give ISU a physicality we lacked last year when George was our biggest LB. Compliment that with Knott and Brackins and we should have a stouter front seven.


    Last edited by isucy86; 04-19-2014 at 08:26 PM.

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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyCloned View Post
    Honestly, the defense was horrible last year, especially to start the season. It really would not take a lot to be better at several positions. DL may be a disaster. At this point we do not know what will happen. I think that the bend but don't break defense will be gone this year, so look for less long drives and more long plays given up. Hopefully there will be enough stops to rest a thin defense, and enough punch in the offense to eliminate the multiple 3 and outs to start games.
    Point of fact, the defense has been bad since Jake got hurt in 2012, then Watson, McDonough and others followed. Prior to that point, they were actually one of the top defenses in the conference. After that, and all of '13. big plays just kept happening.

    It would (or, will)be nice just to get some depth of talent on the field, for a change. If Wally has that to work with, I'll worry about experience later.




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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    I still think the starting linebackers will be Brackens, Meeks, and Miller.



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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    If the opponent is guaranteed a score every time they get the ball, would we try more on-side kicks and 4th down plays? I know the odds are against you, but when you have the 106th ranked defense, you might have a lose-lose situation.



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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    We had about the 95th ranked defense in the country last year, and this year we are going to be younger, less experienced, and much less deep than that defense. So let's just say I'll have to be proven wrong by these guys on the field before I'll believe we'll be better.

    Here's the deal. We are playing in the Big 12, not the MAC. I think what we have is a decent MAC defense. It is what it is. Most of the guys starting for us on defense this year, would not sniff a starting spot on most other Big 12 teams besides maybe Kansas. Obviously there are exceptions like Morrissey and maybe Tribune. Cousin could probably start for some of the bottom half teams in the Big 12 too, but none of the top 5 teams.

    We are relying HEAVILY on JUCOs to come in here and save us, versus just providing some depth. That is not a good position to be in at all. The majority of JUCOs come in way out of shape, take half the year to get the system down, and all comment about how much faster and stronger the game is at this level than where they were before.

    So IMO, this is not a Big 12 caliber defense at all. That is the problem. We consistently play one of the toughest schedules in the country. This is not a defense right now that can be successful going up against that IMO.

    However, if Wally can work some kind of miracle scheme, the JUCOs show up in shape and learn quickly, and everyone is better than expected, I think we could possibly end up being as good of a defense as we had last year, which is still pretty bad, but if the offense is a lot better, it could lead to a 4 or 5 win season at best IMO.



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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clonedogg View Post
    Sometimes I just don't get the eternal optimism of some people about our football team, God bless you, but I don't get it. The defense, which wasn't good, lost 7 of 11 starters from last year Jensen, Irving, Scott, George, Watson, Washington, and Broomfield along with some key contributors in Coe and Rogers. The guys that are going to be starting this year could not beat them out last year, there is a VERY small chance they will be better than the guys that started last year! 90% (guesstimate) of the time this happens, with the off season work they will be, AT MOST, as good as the guy they replaced, rarely are they better. The coaches know this, they went out and signed six juco players for defense, the cupboard is thin. Maybe by mid-season will those jucos bear fruit.

    'All's I'm sayin' is lower your expectations a little (a lot) so you can enjoy the season on defense for what it will be, a rebuild.

    Edit: By the way, I hope I'm completely WRONG!
    The problem with your analysis is that you don't consider the fact that young players make immense improvements in their RS year as they adjust to Big 12 football. Then they improve even more the next year in most cases as their physical bodies mature.

    Young players develop and get better. My expectations are not high. But I actually feel the defense will be at least the same or better than last year. We do have some young talent. And the work ethic of Irving and Coe left a lot to be desired.



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    Re: Defensive 3 deep...some surprising strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by clonedude View Post
    We had about the 95th ranked defense in the country last year, and this year we are going to be younger, less experienced, and much less deep than that defense. So let's just say I'll have to be proven wrong by these guys on the field before I'll believe we'll be better.

    Here's the deal. We are playing in the Big 12, not the MAC. I think what we have is a decent MAC defense. It is what it is. Most of the guys starting for us on defense this year, would not sniff a starting spot on most other Big 12 teams besides maybe Kansas. Obviously there are exceptions like Morrissey and maybe Tribune. Cousin could probably start for some of the bottom half teams in the Big 12 too, but none of the top 5 teams.

    We are relying HEAVILY on JUCOs to come in here and save us, versus just providing some depth. That is not a good position to be in at all. The majority of JUCOs come in way out of shape, take half the year to get the system down, and all comment about how much faster and stronger the game is at this level than where they were before.

    So IMO, this is not a Big 12 caliber defense at all. That is the problem. We consistently play one of the toughest schedules in the country. This is not a defense right now that can be successful going up against that IMO.

    However, if Wally can work some kind of miracle scheme, the JUCOs show up in shape and learn quickly, and everyone is better than expected, I think we could possibly end up being as good of a defense as we had last year, which is still pretty bad, but if the offense is a lot better, it could lead to a 4 or 5 win season at best IMO.
    The same is true of our defense EVERY year. I say we more than equal our win total of last year. Most likely in the 4 to 6 wins area. With luck 7 wins. And I have seen a lot of teams get lucky and pull out close wins.



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