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  1. #316
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    Without BDJ, we easily could have been. We were going to be returning 5 of 7 guys, but the two missing were AA's so a drop-off is very plausible, if not likely. Good thing we grabbed BDJ. Hopefully we gab another to go with Anderson!
    You really need to stop worshiping the geek stats. How many computer models had UCONN winning?



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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by Cincyclone View Post
    I really disagree. I think McKay and Nader isn't that big of a net negative from Ejim and Kane. Plus you have to account for improvement in current players. I think before BDJ Iowa State was looking at being about as good or a little bit worse (maybe a 6-9 seed) than this year.
    Nader and McKay are more redundant than Kane and Ejim, plus McKay out a 1/3 of the season. Naz and Thomas are not coming close to Kane's impact even with improvement.
    Also, it would not take that big of a negative to go on the bubble. Recall 2012-13 we were on the bubble, and without Kane or BDJ this next one is similar to that lineup.



  3. #318
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    Nader and McKay are more redundant than Kane and Ejim, plus McKay out a 1/3 of the season. Naz and Thomas are not coming close to Kane's impact even with improvement.
    Also, it would not take that big of a negative to go on the bubble. Recall 2012-13 we were on the bubble, and without Kane or BDJ this next one is similar to that lineup.
    I think you worry way too much about filling roles as opposed to the overall talent on the roster, honestly.



  4. #319
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by Cincyclone View Post
    I think you worry way too much about filling roles as opposed to the overall talent on the roster, honestly.
    No, actually I worry most about overall talent- let me remind you we are losing two All-Americans. Which is why I think returning Georges, Ejim and adding Kane, but losing 6 of 9 guys, is better than returning 5 out of 7 and adding two forwards.

    You do need both though. It is not about adding roles of individuals, but you do need to be a multiple dimensional team. Having a team of 7 Georges wold be nice, great talent, but probably not a good team. Adding McKay (for a 1/3 of the season) and Nader is not the same in terms of dimensions as Kane and Ejim, nor is it the same in overall talent.


    Last edited by swarthmoreCY; 04-14-2014 at 10:30 PM.

  5. #320
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by CyKings View Post
    I don't think it will be harder, by any stretch. Probably about the same. K-st stays about the same, middle of the pack, WVU gets worse losing Ware, OSU gets worse, TCU is well... TCU, Tech might be a little better, but probably will be about where WVU was last year, The class of the big 12 will be KU, OU, Tex, and ISU. No way do we just end up as a bubble team next year. Not with Thomas likely to improve, Naz becoming another year experienced, Montee growing even more, Niang and Hogue getting stronger, and now add in BDJ...last year we had 2 returning of our main 6... this year we have 5 of our main 7 returning.
    I agree, I think the conference takes a step back in overall depth. Granted maybe this year you might have to at least play your D+ game to beat TCU. I too am surprised by people even pre-BDJ that were projecting a bubble season for ISU next year. CFH is coming off his best season and has the lowest roster turnover he's yet to experience. Pretty much every good team is going to lose some key pieces.



  6. #321
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    [QUOTE=swarthmoreCY;3989629]Nader and McKay are more redundant than Kane and Ejim, plus McKay out a 1/3 of the season. Naz and Thomas are not coming close to Kane's impact even with improvement.
    Also, it would not take that big of a negative to go on the bubble. Recall 2012-13 we were on the bubble, and without Kane this next one is similar to that lineup.[/QUOTE]

    Lol it's not even remotely close outside of both being versatile line up which is the same for every Hoiberg line up.

    Monte vs Lucious. Monte is a true point guard and a leader on both ends of the court. lucious is a scoring guard that played point.

    Dejean-Jones vs Babb. Dejean is a playmaker and can play a little defense too. Babb was a great defender that spaced the floor on offense.

    Hogue vs Clyburn. I don't think I even need to explain this one.

    Nader vs Ejim - Nader is a playmaker that can get his own shot and can creat offense. Ejim was a great rebounder and solid defender.

    None of those comparisons are really even close. I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that the teams were similar. Please explain?



  7. #322
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    No, actually I worry most about overall talent- let me remind you we are losing two All-Americans. Which is why I think returning Georges, Ejim and adding Kane, but losing 6 of 9 guys, is better than returning 5 out of 7 and adding two forwards.

    You do need both though. It is not about adding roles of individuals, but you do need to be a multiple dimensional team. Having a team of 7 Georges wold be nice, great talent, but probably not a good team. Adding McKay (for a 1/3 of the season) and Nader is not the same in terms of dimensions as Kane and Ejim, nor is it the same in overall talent.
    That doesn't seem to mesh with your comments that Nader and McKay are more redundant than Kane and Ejim (seems to suggest worrying about "roles"). You also compare improvement in Naz and Thomas to what we lost with Kane. That's not the comparison you would be making if you were focusing more on overall talent. In that case wouldn't it be more logical to look at it as Nader + McKay + improvement from other players subtracted from Ejim + Kane? I think ultimately this just boils down to you being a lot less high on Nader than the rest of the board.



  8. #323
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    No, actually I worry most about overall talent- let me remind you we are losing two All-Americans. Which is why I think returning Georges, Ejim and adding Kane, but losing 6 of 9 guys, is better than returning 5 out of 7 and adding two forwards.

    You do need both though. It is not about adding roles of individuals, but you do need to be a multiple dimensional team. Having a team of 7 Georges wold be nice, great talent, but probably not a good team. Adding McKay (for a 1/3 of the season) and Nader is not the same in terms of dimensions as Kane and Ejim, nor is it the same in overall talent.
    So Mckay will at worst be back for the conference regular season which is 18 game and at least 1 more for each post season tourney so at minimum he will be eligible for 20 games. How did Hoiberg get by with scheduling 60 games?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to say Nader and Dejean when talking about terms of dimension when compared to Kane and Ejim?



  9. #324
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    No, actually I worry most about overall talent- let me remind you we are losing two All-Americans. Which is why I think returning Georges, Ejim and adding Kane, but losing 6 of 9 guys, is better than returning 5 out of 7 and adding two forwards.

    You do need both though. It is not about adding roles of individuals, but you do need to be a multiple dimensional team. Having a team of 7 Georges wold be nice, great talent, but probably not a good team. Adding McKay (for a 1/3 of the season) and Nader is not the same in terms of dimensions as Kane and Ejim, nor is it the same in overall talent.
    I see no reason why Hogue can't step into the Ejim role as the ultimate garbage man (and I mean that in the best possible way - production without plays run for him). I don't think he'll be conf. POY, but I think he can get fairly close to that production. For that reason and the addition of McKay and Nader I was never too concerned about making up for Ejim's production, but Kane's I certainly was. While it's reasonable to expect at least incremental improvement from Morris, Long and Thomas, it still wouldn't make up for Kane's loss. Improvement from those three plus BDJ will. My only concern is that we might still lack consistent 3 point shooting, as we're losing a 40 and 35% shooter in Kane and Ejim.



  10. #325
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    Nader and McKay are more redundant than Kane and Ejim, plus McKay out a 1/3 of the season. Naz and Thomas are not coming close to Kane's impact even with improvement.
    Also, it would not take that big of a negative to go on the bubble. Recall 2012-13 we were on the bubble, and without Kane or BDJ this next one is similar to that lineup.
    I fully expect Monte to average 15 points a game next year and George 18. Add 14 for Hogue and we are on our way. Nader can do 10 and McKay 10 and Naz 10 and Matt 10. You get the picture. That is 87 already before BDJ with his 13.


    Let my Fred's Posse Ride: Georges, Naz, Hogue, Bryce, Nader, Monte, Matt, and McKay.

  11. #326
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by CyHawk7 View Post
    Lol it's not even remotely close outside of both being versatile line up which is the same for every Hoiberg line up.

    Monte vs Lucious. Monte is a true point guard and a leader on both ends of the court. lucious is a scoring guard that played point.

    Dejean-Jones vs Babb. Dejean is a playmaker and can play a little defense too. Babb was a great defender that spaced the floor on offense.

    Hogue vs Clyburn. I don't think I even need to explain this one.

    Nader vs Ejim - Nader is a playmaker that can get his own shot and can creat offense. Ejim was a great rebounder and solid defender.

    None of those comparisons are really even close. I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that the teams were similar. Please explain?
    -The most critical aspect of my contention was next year was likely a bubble team without BDJ. So there is that.
    -Second, Clyburn was 2nd team All-Big 12 and Big 12 Newcomer of the Year. Yes, you need to explain that one.
    -Third, Ejim was 3rd team All-Big 12 and led the conference in rebounding. He is a better shooter, much more efficient, a better defender, and a better leader.

    Morris vs KL is probably favorable to Morris, but Morris did have the benefit of Kane this year. Even with that one, 2012-13 still had McGee > Naz, and Babb >> Thomas. You are very likely looking at only Georges and Morris being superior to their counterparts.

    I love your audacious optimism though.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyHawk7 View Post
    So Mckay will at worst be back for the conference regular season which is 18 game and at least 1 more for each post season tourney so at minimum he will be eligible for 20 games. How did Hoiberg get by with scheduling 60 games?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to say Nader and Dejean when talking about terms of dimension when compared to Kane and Ejim?
    Again, the contention is without BDJ.


    Last edited by swarthmoreCY; 04-14-2014 at 11:19 PM.

  12. #327
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley View Post
    I fully expect Monte to average 15 points a game next year and George 18. Add 14 for Hogue and we are on our way. Nader can do 10 and McKay 10 and Naz 10 and Matt 10. You get the picture. That is 87 already before BDJ with his 13.
    I fully expect Monte to have an increased offensive ie scoring game next year, but 15 ppg is a bit much to expect. He scored 15 in a single game this year; I don't see him scoring less than one fewer bucket/game than Georges did this past year. IMO 10-12 is a more realistic expectation.

    I think Georges will avg at least 18 ppg next year with 20 not at all unrealistic. With BDJ on board I don't expect Thomas or Naz to average 10 ppg either.

    ISU won't have the 70+ PPG streak next year but will be better defensively (offense will still be great of course).



  13. #328
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by Cincyclone View Post
    That doesn't seem to mesh with your comments that Nader and McKay are more redundant than Kane and Ejim (seems to suggest worrying about "roles"). You also compare improvement in Naz and Thomas to what we lost with Kane. That's not the comparison you would be making if you were focusing more on overall talent. In that case wouldn't it be more logical to look at it as Nader + McKay + improvement from other players subtracted from Ejim + Kane? I think ultimately this just boils down to you being a lot less high on Nader than the rest of the board.
    Sure it does, and just because one weights overall talent the most, does not mean you do not need to pay attention to anything else. Nader and McKay's talents overlap, which results in the overall team talent being less. I'd rather have two elite guards and two elite forwards than one elite guard and three elite forwards. Of course, we do not know if have the latter.


    You do not need rigid individual roles, but your five players better cover the multiple dimensions of the game. We are not running 5 Ejims out-there despite him having AA talent. Nader and McKay are not going to make up for Kane and Ejim. Why? Because neither can do what Kane could (which was everything). I think there is a better chance you are not appreciating what Kane did and overvaluing Nader than me being that off on Nader.



  14. #329
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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    I know this isn't the argument you guys are having, but BDJ and McKay may be a reasonable replacement for Kane and Ejim. McKay brings a different skillset to the table than Ejim (trading outside threat for better defensive presence while keeping rebounds similar) but BDJ will probably play a similar role to Kane, if less PG.

    Expecting anyone to come in and have a season like Kane did is unfair and unrealistic, but the role may be close enough for comparison.



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    Re: Bryce Dejean-Jones is a Cyclone

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    -The most critical aspect of my contention was next year was likely a bubble team without BDJ. So there is that.
    -Second, Clyburn was 2nd team All-Big 12 and Big 12 Newcomer of the Year. Yes, you need to explain that one.
    -Third, Ejim was 3rd team All-Big 12 and led the conference in rebounding. He is a better shooter, much more efficient, a better defender, and a better leader.

    Morris vs KL is probably favorable to Morris, but Morris did have the benefit of Kane this year. Even with that one, 2012-13 still had McGee > Naz, and Babb >> Thomas. You are very likely looking at only Georges and Morris being superior to their counterparts.

    I love your audacious optimism though.

    Again, the contention is without BDJ.
    ill take the mental toughness and clutch ability of of the guys you mentioned above over age/mature skill any day...

    I had had too much fun winning those close games this year than the heartache of losing those close games 2 years ago.




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