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    Basketball perceptions

    I've noticed this for awhile now, but again this morning the Register referred to us as a young team and we're given a pass for our youth and inexperience. However we start two seniors, a junior, a sophomore and a freshman, so when it comes to starters this team is actually older and more experienced than the team we had two years ago which started two juniors, two sophomores and a freshman. Both teams started two first year players, and this year's team also has more starting experience than the team two years ago, which was generally considered an experienced team and given no slack. Two years ago we had no experienced big men and this year we have no experienced guards, so it seems both teams should be given some slack.



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by CYKOFAN View Post
    I've noticed this for awhile now, but again this morning the Register referred to us as a young team and we're given a pass for our youth and inexperience. However we start two seniors, a junior, a sophomore and a freshman, so when it comes to starters this team is actually older and more experienced than the team we had two years ago which started two juniors, two sophomores and a freshman. Both teams started two first year players, and this year's team also has more starting experience than the team two years ago, which was generally considered an experienced team and given no slack. Two years ago we had no experienced big men and this year we have no experienced guards, so it seems both teams should be given some slack.
    They must be using "young" as synonymous with inexperienced.


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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    I've noticed the same thing. Technically I would agree that we aren't a "young" team. It should really be described as inexperience with a new coach and his system. Since Jiri and Rashon only have one more year of experience with GMac than the freshmen.



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    The whole "experience in a system" is hugely overrated. Its just completely ridiculous when it comes to basketball. Look at our best season ever, we had a combined total of 3 years in "the system."

    Tinsley: First year in system
    Horton: First year in system
    Nurse : Second year in system
    Johnson: Second year in system
    Fizer: Second year in system

    Look at the great programs around the country. Year after year many of their lineups are dominated by underclassman. Basketball isn't that complicated, you put the ball through the hoop and stop the other team from doing it at the other end. It doesn't take years to learn an offense, it takes weeks! Our problem isn't that "we don't have enough experience in the system." Its that we aren't very good talent wise and aren't executing with what talent we do have.



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by ajjohnson View Post
    The whole "experience in a system" is hugely overrated. Its just completely ridiculous when it comes to basketball. Look at our best season ever, we had a combined total of 3 years in "the system."

    Tinsley: First year in system
    Horton: First year in system
    Nurse : Second year in system
    Johnson: Second year in system
    Fizer: Second year in system

    Look at the great programs around the country. Year after year many of their lineups are dominated by underclassman. Basketball isn't that complicated, you put the ball through the hoop and stop the other team from doing it at the other end. It doesn't take years to learn an offense, it takes weeks! Our problem isn't that "we don't have enough experience in the system." Its that we aren't very good talent wise and aren't executing with what talent we do have.
    You're kidding yourself if you don't think experience makes a difference. That year we just happened to have arguably the most talent we've ever had at ISU. Also, LE's system wasn't at all like McDermott's. We basically ran a high low 75% of the time and let our guys create. The thing with Larry's system was that 99% of practice time was dedicated to defense, which is a lot easier to pick up than a complicated offensive system. When you consider that McDermott has been rumored to have over 250 sets for our offense, I can see where that would take some time to learn.

    That's not to say a freshman can't come in and be a standout player, but it really helps to have some experience or at least have some other guys with experience that can help catch the new guys up to speed. Have you ever tried to put in an offense with a group that has never ran it before? How about putting in an offense with a group and then when it finally clicks inserting a new player in with the experienced group to learn it? It is 10x easier to get 1 guy in sync with 4 others when the rest all know where they are going and can help him out. Not to mention if it's only 1 or 2 guys that don't know it you can hide them a little better in the offense.

    I'm not saying that it's impossible to have an inexperienced group have success, but that takes an exceptionally talented group and a simple system...of which we have neither. Give it some time and it'll look exponentially better. Just compare this year and last year. At least this year we have more than "run down the clock and give it to Taylor to chuck it up or turn it over"...we've actually run through some things and gotten good looks from our offense game in and game out for the most part.



    Im just glad I have Homan as my bodyguard, Eustachy joked. If I ever make it real big and get to drive a limo everyday, hell be driving it. I thought he came off the bench like somebody was stealing his cow or something.

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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by tigershoops31 View Post
    You're kidding yourself if you don't think experience makes a difference. That year we just happened to have arguably the most talent we've ever had at ISU. Also, LE's system wasn't at all like McDermott's. We basically ran a high low 75% of the time and let our guys create. The thing with Larry's system was that 99% of practice time was dedicated to defense, which is a lot easier to pick up than a complicated offensive system. When you consider that McDermott has been rumored to have over 250 sets for our offense, I can see where that would take some time to learn.

    That's not to say a freshman can't come in and be a standout player, but it really helps to have some experience or at least have some other guys with experience that can help catch the new guys up to speed. Have you ever tried to put in an offense with a group that has never ran it before? How about putting in an offense with a group and then when it finally clicks inserting a new player in with the experienced group to learn it? It is 10x easier to get 1 guy in sync with 4 others when the rest all know where they are going and can help him out. Not to mention if it's only 1 or 2 guys that don't know it you can hide them a little better in the offense.

    I'm not saying that it's impossible to have an inexperienced group have success, but that takes an exceptionally talented group and a simple system...of which we have neither. Give it some time and it'll look exponentially better. Just compare this year and last year. At least this year we have more than "run down the clock and give it to Taylor to chuck it up or turn it over"...we've actually run through some things and gotten good looks from our offense game in and game out for the most part.

    Of course experience helps, but at the same time I could give you example after example of teams that don't have a lot of experience and have excellent seasons in many different complex systems. I'm not saying I don't support McDermott, I think he will eventually do a great job. I'm saying I just don't buy the system argument. Basketball isn't a complex game, at the end of the day it involves making plays, and our players aren't making alot of them, but I wouldn't say it all comes down to not enough time learning "the system," and I see people throw that excuse out all the time. It comes down to talent and executing very simple things like dribbling, passing, shooting, playing defense and rebounding, not that our players haven't had enough years in "the system" to master 250 different sets.



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    You mean like supertalented Purdue who just lost to Wofford?

    Quote Originally Posted by ajjohnson View Post
    Of course experience helps, but at the same time I could give you example after example of teams that don't have a lot of experience and have excellent seasons in many different complex systems. I'm not saying I don't support McDermott, I think he will eventually do a great job. I'm saying I just don't buy the system argument. Basketball isn't a complex game, at the end of the day it involves making plays, and our players aren't making alot of them, but I wouldn't say it all comes down to not enough time learning "the system," and I see people throw that excuse out all the time. It comes down to talent and executing very simple things like dribbling, passing, shooting, playing defense and rebounding, not that our players haven't had enough years in "the system" to master 250 different sets.




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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    I think every one knows you win with talent. One trend that is a little disturbing is to look at the quality of the recruiting classes in the last 3 or 4 years. We have went from having a class of almost all four star talent to what we are recruiting today.

    I don't know if I'm right on this one, but are Clark and Brackins the only 4 star recruits on this team? I know that many of the 4 star recruits from 2002 etc. never ended up playing for us, but at least we were in the same room with the big boys on signing day.


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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by CTTB78 View Post
    I know that many of the 4 star recruits from 2002 etc. never ended up playing for us, but at least we were in the same room with the big boys on signing day.
    Where exactly did that get us?



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by BryceC View Post
    You mean like supertalented Purdue who just lost to Wofford?
    More liike "super talented" South Dakota State, who are lead in minutes on the season by 3 freshman and 2 sophomores, and beat UNI in their FOURTH game of the season. But they will probably compete for a national title once they "learn the system."



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Yeah, South Dakota State really has it going on.


    CFH HMagic bball season next year.
    Let my Fred's Four Horsemen ride: Georges, Hogue, Nader, and McKay.

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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by ajjohnson View Post
    The whole "experience in a system" is hugely overrated. Its just completely ridiculous when it comes to basketball. Look at our best season ever, we had a combined total of 3 years in "the system."

    Tinsley: First year in system
    Horton: First year in system
    Nurse : Second year in system
    Johnson: Second year in system
    Fizer: Second year in system

    Look at the great programs around the country. Year after year many of their lineups are dominated by underclassman. Basketball isn't that complicated, you put the ball through the hoop and stop the other team from doing it at the other end. It doesn't take years to learn an offense, it takes weeks! Our problem isn't that "we don't have enough experience in the system." Its that we aren't very good talent wise and aren't executing with what talent we do have.
    The flaw in your theory is that some of those players were recruited to play in Floyds system which is somewhat like what Eustachy used. Compare that to players on our teams the last two years who were recruited to play in an up and down, fast pace all the time system with Wayne and now they are playing in a slow pace, defense first system. So some of our players are playing out of the norm for them, while the players on Eustachys team were playing almost exactly what they were recruited to play!



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by lennon3 View Post
    The flaw in your theory is that some of those players were recruited to play in Floyds system which is somewhat like what Eustachy used. Compare that to players on our teams the last two years who were recruited to play in an up and down, fast pace all the time system with Wayne and now they are playing in a slow pace, defense first system. So some of our players are playing out of the norm for them, while the players on Eustachys team were playing almost exactly what they were recruited to play!
    I was addressing the argument that it takes time to learn the system to succeed more than the players don't fit the system argument. I think the latter is equally silly. How about the transition from Johnny Orr to Tim Floyd? Their systems were about as night and day as it gets. But for some strange reason the players who weren't recruited for this system learned it and somehow were successful at such a huge change. They even went on to have a remarkedly better season than the year before in the old system! The only player left over from Wayne that was recruited for the run & gun style was Rashon. Considering he is our best defender for what you describe as a defensive system, he is hardly the problem, and is someone we will miss next year.

    The reason that is blatantly obvious is of course talent. We WILL get a LOT better in the coming years. It will be because we will get rid of the non big 12 calibre players and bring in better ones, and our current players will get bigger and stronger and become better BASKETBALL PLAYERS against big 12 quality competition. It will have little to nothing to do with "learning a system" or being "a better fit for the system." They will be better fits because they will have the talent to play in the BIG 12!



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    The whole "experience in a system" is hugely overrated. Its just completely ridiculous when it comes to basketball. Look at our best season ever, we had a combined total of 3 years in "the system."

    Tinsley: First year in system
    Horton: First year in system
    Nurse : Second year in system
    Johnson: Second year in system
    Fizer: Second year in system
    Look at the amount of talent on that roster though. I'm thinking about going to Wal Mart and getting a Flux Capaciter and going back in time to live those days of basketball again. Those were really fun games to watch.



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    Re: Basketball perceptions

    Yeah, I know that Rahshon is the last one who would really fit the up and down style from Wayne, but Jiri is also from one of Wayne's classes. I would say that that is more to do with the problem than anything. The turnover of players between the Morgan era and the McDermott era.

    I just don't think it makes sense to say that years in a system isn't really an argument. I know it is a different sport than we are talking about right now, but how would you explain the turn of events that is happening for Louisville football? They went 12-1 last year got almost everyone back from last years team, including one of the preseason heisman favorites, they got a highly wanted up and coming coach and this year they end up 6-6? Years in a system, and how they fit the system is definitely meaningful in sports.



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