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Thread: Perimeter D

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    Perimeter D

    One of the things I've been noticing a lot since the Iowa game is that teams are really shooting the three on us…take a look below at how many attempts our opponents since Iowa average a game, and how many they took against us.

    TEAM--------AVG -------VS ISU
    Oklahoma --18.7 ---------30
    Baylor ------15.4 ---------25
    Tech ---------15 ----------20
    N. Ill --------15.7 --------23
    Boise St. ----19.7 --------19
    Akron -------21.3 ---------35 (no, not a misprint)
    G.M. --------14.8 ---------20
    Iowa --------15.6----------17

    I think we probably want teams to shoot the outside shot because we don't have much depth down low and prevent us from getting into foul trouble, but it gives Oklahoma (and others) great opportunities like they had today to shoot the long ball.

    At the beginning of the game against Baylor, the first five minutes we literally didn't guard anyone on the outside and they were drilling threes…and they're a top 5 team in the nation in 3 PT%!!!!

    This, and rebounding, are our two biggest flaws in our last few games. This is why I like seeing Thomas on the court. He has trouble getting around screens, but, in my opinion, he's our best player at staying on his man, and he rarely gives his opponent any open shots and always has a hand in their face.

    Other than this, I can't really find anything wrong with this team.


    Last edited by ISUCubswin; 01-11-2014 at 05:39 PM.
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    Re: Perimeter D

    There is no doubt that we could use a little better perimeter D. In the last 3 seasons, I can only remember a couple of losses, where we just couldn't stop the big men down low. Most of our losses under Fred have actually been when the opposing guards beat us on the perimeter.



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    Re: Perimeter D

    Nice find. I think the numbers just visualize what most of us already knew; I believe this is the biggest "weakness" to Fred's system. Fortunately this weakness is really only exploited when our opponent is red hot from 3 and we're shooting poorly, just like today. As many have pointed out, this is going to happen every now and then with Hoiball.



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    Re: Perimeter D

    At first thought it just makes sense that that's the case. We are a small team and if we can make teams perimeter oriented, we are better off. I'm far more concerned about our interior rotations. Love Georges and I'm not saying anything like he should play less but he's not good defensively. He is undisciplined and is in the wrong place a lot of the time. Compound that with a lack of athleticism, and he can be exploited. Also, haven't we been pretty good in regard to 3P% over the last couple years?


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    Re: Perimeter D

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    At first thought it just makes sense that that's the case. We are a small team and if we can make teams perimeter oriented, we are better off. I'm far more concerned about our interior rotations. Love Georges and I'm not saying anything like he should play less but he's not good defensively. He is undisciplined and is in the wrong place a lot of the time. Compound that with a lack of athleticism, and he can be exploited. Also, haven't we been pretty good in regard to 3P% over the last couple years?
    Actually, yes. Even though we are allowing a ton of threes, we are in the top 50 in defensive 3P%.

    That being said, someone shooting 60% on 15 threes and shooting 30% on 30 threes is the same amount of points.

    If we can keep teams to, say, 5 less three's a game than we do now, I'm sure we could cut the points we give up by 5-10 points per game. However, with how many we give up a game, they're bound to go down. Especially if a team shoots 30 threes over 40%


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    Re: Perimeter D

    The perimeter defense hurt today mainly because ISU was not making their 3's to match the other team's output. If ISU is hitting 3's at the same pace, it does not matter so much.

    The bigger problem today was ISU was getting killed on the boards, especially allowing OU way too many second chances. OU outscored ISU in 2nd chance points by 20. OU got 7 more offensive boards than ISU got. Once again, ISU gave up double digit offensive boards to the other team. That just cannot continue to happen, because you will lose a lot of games in the Big 12 that way.


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    Re: Perimeter D

    Quote Originally Posted by ISUCubswin View Post
    If we can keep teams to, say, 5 less three's a game than we do now, I'm sure we could cut the points we give up by 5-10 points per game. However, with how many we give up a game, they're bound to go down. Especially if a team shoots 30 threes over 40%
    Not exactly. If we cut their threes to 5 less per game, at our current 3 pt defense rate of 31.3%, that is 4.695 points. But of course we're not going to just remove those possessions, so let's assume they get another generic field goal, which we defend at 39.3%, which works out to 3.93 pts, so really that would gain us less than a point per game.

    With all of that being said, that statistic is a really nice and interesting find. I wonder if Fred would be pleased or concerned with this statistic.


    Last edited by Clone9; 01-11-2014 at 08:23 PM.

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    Re: Perimeter D

    Not too worried about our perimeter D in general. Normally I'm pretty OK with forcing teams to shoot outside with the exception of 1 or 2 guys, e.g. guard Heslip and Franklin and take your chances on anyone else shooting from deep.

    What bugs me is when a known shooter is allowed repeated open looks from deep. Hield was their leading 3 pt shooter (makes/g) with 6 games of making 3+ before tonight. He should not have been allowed so many open looks.



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    Re: Perimeter D

    Our guys just looked confused with the crazy match up zone/ man to man but always switch defense. Rotations were terrible. I really would have liked to see us go straight up man to man for a bit. I feel like we are very similar teams, but I think our guys are better at almost every position. So why not try straight up?



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    Re: Perimeter D

    We like to double team with a guard on the low block, which opens up an outside shot no matter how our defense rotates. When teams move the ball well we are very susceptible to open three point shots.



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    Re: Perimeter D

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryburn View Post
    The bigger problem today was ISU was getting killed on the boards, especially allowing OU way too many second chances. OU outscored ISU in 2nd chance points by 20. OU got 7 more offensive boards than ISU got. Once again, ISU gave up double digit offensive boards to the other team. That just cannot continue to happen, because you will lose a lot of games in the Big 12 that way.
    Agreed...one just cannot give up so many second chance opportunities against good competition. With one more rebounder/interior defender, ISU could dominate the Big 12. I was hoping Gibson could step up and seize that role; he has the size for it, but so far it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

    As mentioned above, ISU often compensates on the interior defense by doubling with a guard. Good shooting teams will exploit that.


    Last edited by jbhtexas; 01-11-2014 at 10:18 PM.
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    Re: Perimeter D

    Quote Originally Posted by Luth4Cy View Post
    We like to double team with a guard on the low block, which opens up an outside shot no matter how our defense rotates. When teams move the ball well we are very susceptible to open three point shots.
    This. Typically we're giving up size at the 4 and 5 so we double team to compensate. But OU isn't very big either so I didn't understand the double teams or the zone today.

    Also, as others have said, we helped off of Hield way too much today. I thought we should have face-guarded him Babb-style with Hogue or Naz.



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    Re: Perimeter D

    Quote Originally Posted by Luth4Cy View Post
    We like to double team with a guard on the low block, which opens up an outside shot no matter how our defense rotates. When teams move the ball well we are very susceptible to open three point shots.
    Yes, this. It is the weak spot in our defense. They hit the shots we gave them (though honestly I was hoping we would switch it up due to how hot they were). Worked until today



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    Re: Perimeter D

    Which would you rather give the opponent: a chance at a high percentage shot and a possible foul or a 3 pointer? Honest question, as it seems to be an either or as our post D isn't great and losing Niang/Ejim/Hogue to foul trouble hurts us big time.

    To win, we obviously need to do a better job rebounding misses, but I think a big key to winning is we need 15-25 points out of the Morris, Naz, Thomas trio. When those guys are all off that puts a load on our Big 4 players. They are very good but we need production out of those 3.

    If you've noticed, Thomas doesn't miss many 3s that he isn't set. Coming off a screen or some sort of movement, he knocks it down. When he takes a set shot, it's like he is thinking too much.

    No ragging on him, but just my observation.



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    Re: Perimeter D

    A three point shot yields about as many points per shot as a shot near the rim (http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/1009...rShot_1152.jpg, NBA-based, but same idea), and defensive 3FG% is a crapshoot compared to limiting 3FGAs (the kenpom.com blog), so running opponents off the line (and ideally into taking long 2P jumpers) would be nice. But Niang and/or Ejim need help in the post when taller 4/5s are able to get position. Unless rotation is crisp 100% of the time (which is never going to happen), there's going to be some open looks against teams that have four or five guys on the floor that can swing and shoot it when a doubled post player kicks it out. I would argue it's no single player's fault, just a disadvantage of running a lineup where the tallest player is 6'7" with no vertical. And despite all this, ISU is still a top 30 team in defensive efficiency. It's just going to be tough against perimeter-oriented teams (OU, and looking ahead, WVU and KSU), especially when they're lucky enough to shoot above their usual 3FG% and ISU is shooting below theirs.



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