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Thread: ***Week 11***

  1. #76
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by 3TrueFans View Post
    No, those are judgement calls based on events that actually happened. Not impossible. Possible to get wrong, but also possible to get right.

    What you're saying is the ball was uncatchable because if Kuechly didn't interfere it would have still been intercepted. It's impossible to know that because Kuechly did interfere. To speculate what would have happened if he didn't is an impossible call because it never happened. This isn't like saying a ball that sailed 30 yards out of bounds can't be caught, these players were occupying literally the same space when the ball was thrown.

    If we're asking refs to make calls based on what would happen in an alternate, completely imaginary scenario then I'd say the rules are flawed.

    The ball was unlikely to be caught, it was not uncatchable.
    How is that different than a roughing the passer call where the ref determines that a player should have been able to pull up in time? There is no way to measure whether or not he is correct. It's up to the ref's judgement to determine what would have happened if the player had attempted to pull up.


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  2. #77
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Janny View Post
    How is that different than a roughing the passer call where the ref determines that a player should have been able to pull up in time? There is no way to measure whether or not he is correct. It's up to the ref's judgement to determine what would have happened if the player had attempted to pull up.
    Because the hit that is questioned to be roughing the passer or not actually happened. The fantasy of Luke Kuechly not interfering with Gronkowski is a fairy tale that doesn't exist.



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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by 3TrueFans View Post
    Because the hit that is questioned to be roughing the passer or not actually happened.
    The interception actually happened as well. The question is, would it still have happened had Kuechly not interfered with Gronk?

    How is that any different than a Roughing the Passer call where a ref has to determine if a hit would still have taken place if a defender was able to pull up in time?


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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Janny View Post
    The interception actually happened as well. The question is, would it still have happened had Kuechly not interfered with Gronk?

    How is that any different than a Roughing the Passer call where a ref has to determine if a hit would still have taken place if a defender was able to pull up in time?
    Right, and the answer to that question is nobody could possibly know for sure, because it never happened! You seem to be struggling with the idea that some things happen and others don't.

    A roughing the passer call where the ref has to determine if the defender had time to stop is different BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, it's a real event in the course of human history, there'd even be video evidence of it. If you can find me video evidence of Luke Kuechly not interfering with that pass to end the game last night I'll be content with your explanation and we can move on.



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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by 3TrueFans View Post
    Right, and the answer to that question is nobody could possibly know for sure, because it never happened! You seem to be struggling with the idea that some things happen and others don't.

    A roughing the passer call where the ref has to determine if the defender had time to stop is different BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, it's a real event in the course of human history, there'd even be video evidence of it. If you can find me video evidence of Luke Kuechly not interfering with that pass to end the game last night I'll be content with your explanation and we can move on.
    Sorry man, this is a major fail on your part. The reality of the situation is that there is the same amount of video evidence of Kuechly not interfering with Gronk and the interception still being made as there is of a defensive end being able to pull up in time and not hitting a qb on a roughing the passer call.
    It's called a judgement call. An inference. A determination that the refs must make. There's a reason that these types of things are not subject to instant replay.


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    "Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood."
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Janny View Post
    Sorry man, this is a major fail on your part. The reality of the situation is that there is the same amount of video evidence of Kuechly not interfering with Gronk and the interception still being made as there is of a defensive end being able to pull up in time and not hitting a qb on a roughing the passer call.
    It's called a judgement call. An inference. A determination that the refs must make. There's a reason that these types of things are not subject to instant replay.
    In the case of a possible roughing the passer call the ref is making a judgement call based on something he saw with his own eyeballs. He saw a defender hit a quarterback and can make a call based on if he would have been able to stop himself.

    Last night the judgement call was made on something that nobody on the planet Earth or any other planetary object could have seen or will ever see because it never occurred. Now maybe if the contact didn't happen until the ball was intercepted you might have a point, but it didn't, so you don't.



  7. #82
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by 3TrueFans View Post
    In the case of a possible roughing the passer call the ref is making a judgement call based on something he saw with his own eyeballs. He saw a defender hit a quarterback and can make a call based on if he would have been able to stop himself.

    Last night the judgement call was made on something that nobody on the planet Earth or any other planetary object could have seen or will ever see because it never occurred. Now maybe if the contact didn't happen until the ball was intercepted you might have a point, but it didn't, so you don't.

    He did? He saw a defender able to pull up in time? Of course he didn't. He inferred that the defender should have been able to do that. No one saw the defender actually do it, to prove that he was right.

    That's the entire basis of an inference.


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    -Simon Belmont

    "Please bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine..."
    -Master Shake

    "Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood."
    -Lorem Ipsum

  8. #83
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Janny View Post
    He did? He saw a defender able to pull up in time? Of course he didn't. He inferred that the defender should have been able to do that. No one saw the defender actually do it, to prove that he was right.

    That's the entire basis of an inference.
    He saw the entire play unfold from start to finish in order to determine if he could pull up or not. Yes it's a judgement call, I'm not debating that judgement calls are a part of officiating, but the play happened at least. Now judging that a receiver in the same immediate area as a DB couldn't catch a ball based on some fantasy scenario where he wasn't interfered with is not a judgement call I'm comfortable with.



  9. #84
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by 3TrueFans View Post
    He saw the entire play unfold from start to finish in order to determine if he could pull up or not. Yes it's a judgement call, I'm not debating that judgement calls are a part of officiating, but the play happened at least. Now judging that a receiver in the same immediate area as a DB couldn't catch a ball based on some fantasy scenario where he wasn't interfered with is not a judgement call I'm comfortable with.
    Except, that's exactly what the rule asks the refs to do. If the ball had been over Gronk's head instead of underthrown, and he wasn't able to put up his arms because of Kuechly's interference, the ref still has to determine if he would have been able to get his arms up high enough to catch the pass, had Kuechly not been there. He doesn't get to see that happen. He has to infer it. And the rule is written that if the inference is made that ball is not catchable, the interference doesn't matter.


    "What a horrible night to have a curse."
    -Simon Belmont

    "Please bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine..."
    -Master Shake

    "Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood."
    -Lorem Ipsum

  10. #85
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Janny View Post
    Except, that's exactly what the rule asks the refs to do. If the ball had been over Gronk's head instead of underthrown, and he wasn't able to put up his arms because of Kuechly's interference, the ref still has to determine if he would have been able to get his arms up high enough to catch the pass, had Kuechly not been there. He doesn't get to see that happen. He has to infer it. And the rule is written that if the inference is made that ball is not catchable, the interference doesn't matter.
    This whole conversation has me exhausted. Stupid Patriots.



  11. #86
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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by 3TrueFans View Post
    This whole conversation has me exhausted. Stupid Patriots.
    agreed. Stupid Patriots. And if Denver does their job, it will be two weeks worth of "Stupid Patriots"


    "What a horrible night to have a curse."
    -Simon Belmont

    "Please bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine..."
    -Master Shake

    "Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood."
    -Lorem Ipsum

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    Re: ***Week 11***

    What about roughing the passer calls after the ball is out and it's picked off? Last I checked the offense keeps the ball and gets 15 yards - even though the penalty had nothing to do with the interception.

    This is was a penalty. PI or holding - I don't care. But it is a penalty and it's a horrible call by the stripes.



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    Re: ***Week 11***

    If only the Patriots could benefit from bad calls.

    Anybody remember any?



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    Re: ***Week 11***

    Quote Originally Posted by ISUFan22 View Post
    What about roughing the passer calls after the ball is out and it's picked off? Last I checked the offense keeps the ball and gets 15 yards - even though the penalty had nothing to do with the interception.

    This is was a penalty. PI or holding - I don't care. But it is a penalty and it's a horrible call by the stripes.
    So what? Roughing the Passer is a separate penalty, not a condition of Pass Interference. The interception, or more accurately, the degree to which the refs felt the pass was underthrown was the factor here.

    And as was stated before, PI was the only call that could have been made. Illegal contact or holding can only be called if they occur before the ball is in the air. Once the ball is in the air, it can only be Pass Interference. (assuming the contact occurs on the intended receiver)


    "What a horrible night to have a curse."
    -Simon Belmont

    "Please bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine..."
    -Master Shake

    "Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood."
    -Lorem Ipsum

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