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  1. #1
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    Respecting CPR's Judgment

    I posted most of this this in another thread, but think the thoughts deserve their own. I'm including a quote, but am eliminating the OP, because I don't think who it was really matters--and I don't want to single anyone out.


    I still have 100% faith in Rhoads although I hope he corrects some of the offense issues are adjusts the staff accordingly. If he goes into next season with the same group of coaches, that faith will dwindle.
    Not to pick on any one person, but this statement is representative of a certain prevalent attitude--and made me chuckle.

    People have gone out of their way to blame Courtney Messingham for all of the problems on the offense. Apparently they just aren't watching the team closely, or don't know a whole lot about football. I have to admit, it's the simplest assumption. If the offense isn't good, blame the coordinator.

    The funny thing is, someone who says that he has "100% faith" in Coach Rhoads is clearly paying absolutely no attention to what CPR is saying. Or in Coach Rhoads' judgment, one of the two. Because throughout the season, despite expandingly ludicrous accusations on the part of fans, CPR has repeatedly addressed the OC rumor and innuendo. After the Tulsa game, he talked about what a terrific job Coach Messingham did calling plays. After the Texas game,, he spoke on what a fantastic job CM did bringing the offense together. Don't believe me? It's ight there on the Paul Rhoads show replays.

    In other words, CPR knows that the offensive coordinator isn't the problem. And frankly, if you're one of the people disagreeing with him, then you do not have "100% faith" in him. You're putting your own judgment above his.

    It's not hard to to tell what CPR thinks the main problem has been Let's start out with how he mentions that in six games, there have been six different combinations of starting offensive linemen. Even a casual observer likes myself knows that you don't just plug pieces in, offensive line efficiency is built on teamwork, cohesiveness and familiarity with one another.

    Sure, there are other problems from that point. CPR mentions them, if you actually pay attention to what he says. If you don't you have no one to blame but yourself. And Courtney Messingham hasn't been perfect as a playcaller. He has room for improvement. The odd thing is, even when I watch NFL games, I don't think anyone is a "perfect" playcaller, there are always headscratchers.

    Yep, even watching Manning in Denver.

    My point is, CPR has played more football than most of us on this board, and more importantly, he's coached more football than anyone on this board. He has a better idea of what plays are called, and why, and a whole lot better idea of why any individual play failed.

    So, maybe this is just my point of view, but if Paul Rhoads doesn't think that Coach Messingham is the major problem with the offense, I'll sure as heck take his word for it, over the judgment of some anonymous message board poster. No matter how unhappy I am with the team's performance.

    That's good enough for me, and I think it's a little bit more like "100% confidence" in Coach Rhoads is supposed to look like.

    Of course, feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I HAVE been mistaken before, after all. More than any of you would imagine, matter of fact.


    Last edited by Aclone; 10-22-2013 at 03:28 PM.


    Paul Rhoads' players never quit.


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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    I have confidence in Coach Rhoads and if you listen to the UNI/Iowa games post games, you can tell when he says "I think we need to improve on the playcalling" that only means 1 person. Mess doesn't recognize trends in a game and go with them. He always retries plays that don't work and the entire flow of the offense is not smoothe with all the checks to the sideline etc. I'm sorry but I disagree that Mess isn't a big part of the problem. He has called about 30-40% of the games since he has been here well, even when we had healthy players. The other 60-70% is an unmitigated disaster.


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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Redundant post is redundant.

    "It's déjà vu all over again". Yogi Berra



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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    TL;DR

    Personally, I'm slowly losing faith in Rhoads. Without off season coaching changes, I will continue to lose faith. Lots of the people in the stands will begin to do the same. I think we all know what happens next.



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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Honestly, I fail to see an offensive strategy that could work with the state of the offensive line and the youth in the receiving corps that we have. I place much more blame on the offensive line status than on Messingham for the ineptitude of our offense over the last couple of games.

    Consider that at the end of spring training, our line looked like this:

    Code:
    OT    Jr# Gannon        So# Dagel
    OT    Sr# Lichtenberg   So# Lalk
    OG    Jr# Dika          Jr# Graham
    OG    Sr# Tuftee        Fr# Burton
    C     Jr# Farniok       Jr# Loth
    Starting 3 Jr# and 2 Sr#, with 2 Jr#, 2 So#, and 1 Fr# backing up.

    And now we look like this:

    Code:
    OT    Fr# Dunning        
    OT    So# Dagel
    OG    So# Omoile        Sr# Tuftee*
    OG    Fr# Burton        So# Lalk*
    C     Jr# Farniok*       Jr# Loth
    Starting 2 Fr#, 2 So#, and 1 Jr#, with 1 So#, Jr#, and Sr# backing up. Completely out of backups at OT. Here's the injuries we've sustained since spring ball:

    Dika - career ending injury
    Graham - season ending injury
    Tuftee - injured all season
    Farniok - injured early in first game, still not fully recovered
    Lalk - injured early in second game, still not fully recovered
    Gannon - injured in 5th game
    Lichtenberg - disappointing all year, injured in 6th game

    That's 3 of our 4 guards in the 2-deep injured, with the other a Fr#. Another Fr# forced into starting at OT who wasn't even on the depth chart in the spring.

    As I recall, most close to the program thought our best OL in the spring were Farniok, Dika, and Tuftee. One is done due to injury, and the other 2 have been severely hampered by injuries.

    Maybe the former OL in me is overvaluing the offensive line, but I don't see how any team, let alone ISU who isn't bringing in blue chip recruits, can compete in the Big XII sustaining the injuries on the OL that we have since spring ball.

    Add to that youth forced to play and installing a new blocking system = offensive issues.



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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Rhoads is no doubt the guy to lead the program and build a football team, he is just not an offensive (QB specifically) guru. He has made bad decisions for his OCs and that is his biggest downfall so far. Pretty much everything else has been boosted by his arrival, even recruiting is picking up this year a little, even though it has been a very slow improvement.



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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaselhu View Post
    Honestly, I fail to see an offensive strategy that could work with the state of the offensive line and the youth in the receiving corps that we have. I place much more blame on the offensive line status than on Messingham for the ineptitude of our offense over the last couple of games.

    Consider that at the end of spring training, our line looked like this:

    Code:
    OT    Jr# Gannon        So# Dagel
    OT    Sr# Lichtenberg   So# Lalk
    OG    Jr# Dika          Jr# Graham
    OG    Sr# Tuftee        Fr# Burton
    C     Jr# Farniok       Jr# Loth
    Starting 3 Jr# and 2 Sr#, with 2 Jr#, 2 So#, and 1 Fr# backing up.

    And now we look like this:

    Code:
    OT    Fr# Dunning        
    OT    So# Dagel
    OG    So# Omoile        Sr# Tuftee*
    OG    Fr# Burton        So# Lalk*
    C     Jr# Farniok*       Jr# Loth
    Starting 2 Fr#, 2 So#, and 1 Jr#, with 1 So#, Jr#, and Sr# backing up. Completely out of backups at OT. Here's the injuries we've sustained since spring ball:

    Dika - career ending injury
    Graham - season ending injury
    Tuftee - injured all season
    Farniok - injured early in first game, still not fully recovered
    Lalk - injured early in second game, still not fully recovered
    Gannon - injured in 5th game
    Lichtenberg - disappointing all year, injured in 6th game

    That's 3 of our 4 guards in the 2-deep injured, with the other a Fr#. Another Fr# forced into starting at OT who wasn't even on the depth chart in the spring.

    As I recall, most close to the program thought our best OL in the spring were Farniok, Dika, and Tuftee. One is done due to injury, and the other 2 have been severely hampered by injuries.

    Maybe the former OL in me is overvaluing the offensive line, but I don't see how any team, let alone ISU who isn't bringing in blue chip recruits, can compete in the Big XII sustaining the injuries on the OL that we have since spring ball.

    Add to that youth forced to play and installing a new blocking system = offensive issues.
    THIS



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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaselhu View Post
    Honestly, I fail to see an offensive strategy that could work with the state of the offensive line and the youth in the receiving corps that we have. I place much more blame on the offensive line status than on Messingham for the ineptitude of our offense over the last couple of games.

    Consider that at the end of spring training, our line looked like this:

    Code:
    OT    Jr# Gannon        So# Dagel
    OT    Sr# Lichtenberg   So# Lalk
    OG    Jr# Dika          Jr# Graham
    OG    Sr# Tuftee        Fr# Burton
    C     Jr# Farniok       Jr# Loth
    Starting 3 Jr# and 2 Sr#, with 2 Jr#, 2 So#, and 1 Fr# backing up.

    And now we look like this:

    Code:
    OT    Fr# Dunning        
    OT    So# Dagel
    OG    So# Omoile        Sr# Tuftee*
    OG    Fr# Burton        So# Lalk*
    C     Jr# Farniok*       Jr# Loth
    Starting 2 Fr#, 2 So#, and 1 Jr#, with 1 So#, Jr#, and Sr# backing up. Completely out of backups at OT. Here's the injuries we've sustained since spring ball:

    Dika - career ending injury
    Graham - season ending injury
    Tuftee - injured all season
    Farniok - injured early in first game, still not fully recovered
    Lalk - injured early in second game, still not fully recovered
    Gannon - injured in 5th game
    Lichtenberg - disappointing all year, injured in 6th game

    That's 3 of our 4 guards in the 2-deep injured, with the other a Fr#. Another Fr# forced into starting at OT who wasn't even on the depth chart in the spring.

    As I recall, most close to the program thought our best OL in the spring were Farniok, Dika, and Tuftee. One is done due to injury, and the other 2 have been severely hampered by injuries.

    Maybe the former OL in me is overvaluing the offensive line, but I don't see how any team, let alone ISU who isn't bringing in blue chip recruits, can compete in the Big XII sustaining the injuries on the OL that we have since spring ball.

    Add to that youth forced to play and installing a new blocking system = offensive issues.
    Every now and then I come to CF and read a post that restores my faith in Iowa State University. This is one of those post's. Well done.



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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaselhu View Post
    Honestly, I fail to see an offensive strategy that could work with the state of the offensive line and the youth in the receiving corps that we have. I place much more blame on the offensive line status than on Messingham for the ineptitude of our offense over the last couple of games.

    Consider that at the end of spring training, our line looked like this:

    Code:
    OT    Jr# Gannon        So# Dagel
    OT    Sr# Lichtenberg   So# Lalk
    OG    Jr# Dika          Jr# Graham
    OG    Sr# Tuftee        Fr# Burton
    C     Jr# Farniok       Jr# Loth
    Starting 3 Jr# and 2 Sr#, with 2 Jr#, 2 So#, and 1 Fr# backing up.

    And now we look like this:

    Code:
    OT    Fr# Dunning        
    OT    So# Dagel
    OG    So# Omoile        Sr# Tuftee*
    OG    Fr# Burton        So# Lalk*
    C     Jr# Farniok*       Jr# Loth
    Starting 2 Fr#, 2 So#, and 1 Jr#, with 1 So#, Jr#, and Sr# backing up. Completely out of backups at OT. Here's the injuries we've sustained since spring ball:

    Dika - career ending injury
    Graham - season ending injury
    Tuftee - injured all season
    Farniok - injured early in first game, still not fully recovered
    Lalk - injured early in second game, still not fully recovered
    Gannon - injured in 5th game
    Lichtenberg - disappointing all year, injured in 6th game

    That's 3 of our 4 guards in the 2-deep injured, with the other a Fr#. Another Fr# forced into starting at OT who wasn't even on the depth chart in the spring.

    As I recall, most close to the program thought our best OL in the spring were Farniok, Dika, and Tuftee. One is done due to injury, and the other 2 have been severely hampered by injuries.

    Maybe the former OL in me is overvaluing the offensive line, but I don't see how any team, let alone ISU who isn't bringing in blue chip recruits, can compete in the Big XII sustaining the injuries on the OL that we have since spring ball.

    Add to that youth forced to play and installing a new blocking system = offensive issues.
    Yep, when put that way, looks like six more losses because the other teams do not have our problems without a solution.


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    Let my Fred's Four Horsemen ride: Georges, Hogue, Nader, and McKay.

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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Quote Originally Posted by Aclone View Post
    I posted most of this this in another thread, but think the thoughts deserve their own. I'm including a quote, but am eliminating the OP, because I don't think who it was really matters--and I don't want to single anyone out.


    Not to pick on any one person, but this statement is representative of a certain prevalent attitude--and made me chuckle.

    People have gone out of their way to blame Courtney Messingham for all of the problems on the offense. Apparently they just aren't watching the team closely, or don't know a whole lot about football. I have to admit, it's the simplest assumption. If the offense isn't good, blame the coordinator.

    The funny thing is, someone who says that he has "100% faith" in Coach Rhoads is clearly paying absolutely no attention to what CPR is saying. Or in Coach Rhoads' judgment, one of the two. Because throughout the season, despite expandingly ludicrous accusations on the part of fans, CPR has repeatedly addressed the OC rumor and innuendo. After the Tulsa game, he talked about what a terrific job Coach Messingham did calling plays. After the Texas game,, he spoke on what a fantastic job CM did bringing the offense together. Don't believe me? It's ight there on the Paul Rhoads show replays.

    In other words, CPR knows that the offensive coordinator isn't the problem. And frankly, if you're one of the people disagreeing with him, then you do not have "100% faith" in him. You're putting your own judgment above his.

    It's not hard to to tell what CPR thinks the main problem has been Let's start out with how he mentions that in six games, there have been six different combinations of starting offensive linemen. Even a casual observer likes myself knows that you don't just plug pieces in, offensive line efficiency is built on teamwork, cohesiveness and familiarity with one another.

    Sure, there are other problems from that point. CPR mentions them, if you actually pay attention to what he says. If you don't you have no one to blame but yourself. And Courtney Messingham hasn't been perfect as a playcaller. He has room for improvement. The odd thing is, even when I watch NFL games, I don't think anyone is a "perfect" playcaller, there are always headscratchers.

    Yep, even watching Manning in Denver.

    My point is, CPR has played more football than most of us on this board, and more importantly, he's coached more football than anyone on this board. He has a better idea of what plays are called, and why, and a whole lot better idea of why any individual play failed.

    So, maybe this is just my point of view, but if Paul Rhoads doesn't think that Coach Messingham is the major problem with the offense, I'll sure as heck take his word for it, over the judgment of some anonymous message board poster. No matter how unhappy I am with the team's performance.

    That's good enough for me, and I think it's a little bit more like "100% confidence" in Coach Rhoads is supposed to look like.

    Of course, feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I HAVE been mistaken before, after all. More than any of you would imagine, matter of fact.
    This post is a bunch of ********. You just quoted a post from another thread and everyone knows whose post it was so cut the **** with this "I am not trying to call anyone out or single anyone out" crap... You absolutely just singled someone out and your entire post is an attempt to call that person out for their opinion. Now that I cleared that up for you on to your post... (Yes... I am singling you out here)

    You have cherry picked a couple comments Rhoads made. How about some of his other comments?

    After the Baylor game:
    Rhoads: Offensively, there is no question about it. Offensively and it’s not just the Baylor week it has been the two back to back weeks that we have been overall very unproductive and at times inept. We have gone 19 series without a first down in the last two weeks that is awful offensive football so no question the offensive side.

    Who is in charge of the offense?

    In regards to the QB play:
    Rhoads:Productivity. We were looking for the football team to move down the field. We were looking for first downs and we weren’t getting them. So we put Grant into the ballgame and try to jump start that and see what could get accomplished, didn’t really happen. Sam’s knowledge is far ahead quite simply of where Grant’s knowledge is. That’s just time and experience, that’s an important factor and will remain an advantage for Sam as the year goes along. Did not get banged up anymore for the first time this season, so he will be even healthier going into this game. Sam’s going to start, we plan on him playing at a higher level with his physical health, he’s got to make smarter decisions and quicker judgments.

    Who is in charge of developing the QB's?

    After the Iowa game:
    PR:Well, I want to see us take advantage of things that people give us. We’ve got certain qualities that different receivers can do. We’ve got to take advantage of those qualities and not do what we can’t do. We don’t protect well enough to throw the ball downfield with regularity. We’ve tried to do too much of that. We need to get the ball out of our hand quicker and that starts with the play caller.

    Who is the play caller again?

    After the Iowa game:
    “(Iowa’s) front four is very stout,” he said. “But we’re not opening up the kinds of holes we need to to run the ball effectively, and I think play calling has a little bit to do with that.”

    Iowa State head coach Paul Rhoads said he agreed that the play calling needs to be better, but was decisive when it came to being asked if a change in play callers was needed.


    Paul Rhoads has certainly questioned the play calling this season and a few games when the offense played well against terrible defenses in Tulsa and Texas doesn't change that. Rhoads called the offense inept against Tech & Baylor... I would say that is a pretty damaging comment for an OC. Wouldn't you?



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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Offense - 2111 yards
    Defense - 2952 yards
    Kirby - 1860 yards
    Kick returns - 592 yards
    Penalties - 291 yards
    KickOffs -1781 yards
    Punt Returns - 143 yards

    Kirby is close behind the offense and ahead of KickOffs. Our penalties have doubled. Is that because we are young and inexperienced too?


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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaselhu View Post
    Honestly, I fail to see an offensive strategy that could work with the state of the offensive line and the youth in the receiving corps that we have. I place much more blame on the offensive line status than on Messingham for the ineptitude of our offense over the last couple of games.

    Consider that at the end of spring training, our line looked like this:

    Code:
    OT    Jr# Gannon        So# Dagel
    OT    Sr# Lichtenberg   So# Lalk
    OG    Jr# Dika          Jr# Graham
    OG    Sr# Tuftee        Fr# Burton
    C     Jr# Farniok       Jr# Loth
    Starting 3 Jr# and 2 Sr#, with 2 Jr#, 2 So#, and 1 Fr# backing up.

    And now we look like this:

    Code:
    OT    Fr# Dunning        
    OT    So# Dagel
    OG    So# Omoile        Sr# Tuftee*
    OG    Fr# Burton        So# Lalk*
    C     Jr# Farniok*       Jr# Loth
    Starting 2 Fr#, 2 So#, and 1 Jr#, with 1 So#, Jr#, and Sr# backing up. Completely out of backups at OT. Here's the injuries we've sustained since spring ball:

    Dika - career ending injury
    Graham - season ending injury
    Tuftee - injured all season
    Farniok - injured early in first game, still not fully recovered
    Lalk - injured early in second game, still not fully recovered
    Gannon - injured in 5th game
    Lichtenberg - disappointing all year, injured in 6th game

    That's 3 of our 4 guards in the 2-deep injured, with the other a Fr#. Another Fr# forced into starting at OT who wasn't even on the depth chart in the spring.

    As I recall, most close to the program thought our best OL in the spring were Farniok, Dika, and Tuftee. One is done due to injury, and the other 2 have been severely hampered by injuries.

    Maybe the former OL in me is overvaluing the offensive line, but I don't see how any team, let alone ISU who isn't bringing in blue chip recruits, can compete in the Big XII sustaining the injuries on the OL that we have since spring ball.

    Add to that youth forced to play and installing a new blocking system = offensive issues.
    All this is true but does not cover up the fact that the offensive line has been a permanent dumpster fire in the Rhoads era. Remember having NFL'rs Osemeli, Hayworth Hicks and Carter Bykowski on the line at the same time? We also had a freshman named Farniok (future NFL) on that line. 95% of the teams in the country would have averaged 200 yards rushing per game. What did ISU have? Yeah, the line stunk that year. This is an ongoing problem and the injuries this year are a convenient excuse. This oline has always been destroyed by a blitz in the Rhoads era. Our QB's **** their pants when a blitz comes at them. What gives?

    edit, we averaged 175 yards/game for 39th in the country, should be better with NFL guys.


    Last edited by twojman; 10-22-2013 at 06:34 PM.

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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    I realize we have 0 talent on our offense minus Wimberley and Bundrage, but our playcalling is also atrocious. I know it's bad when you have players that can't make a play, but does no one remember every call against UNI and Iowa? And then we beat Tulsa, and people start thinking Messingham is a great OC.


    The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again. Oh... people will come Ray. People will most definitely come.

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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Rhoads makes mistakes. He will neither be the first, or last coach, if he gets canned in 4-5 years (which I doubt) for being too loyal to his coordinators (reminds me of someone). Also, to AClone, it's called coachspeak. Nobody here (maybe CW) knows if Rhoads actually likes the playcalling or not. Plenty of examples by 78 where Rhoads says the opposite.


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    Re: Respecting CPR's Judgment

    Remember the Liberty Bowl.



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