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  1. #61
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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaselhu View Post
    In Big XII conference games last year, only Kansas State and TCU scored more points in the second half than in the first half. OSU was almost break even. Texas Tech, Kansas, Oklahoma and ourselves scored 40+ more points in the first half than in the second half. We ranked 9th in margin at -48.

    By comparison, Tom Herman's offense was -1 in 2011, and +28 in 2010.


    It should also be noted that Messingham has produced more total points. Here are the scoring averages per game for the last 3 years.

    Year/Conf/Overall
    2012/24.2/24.5
    2011/21.6/22.7
    2010/21.5/21.7


    Messingham hasn't been lighting it up, but I wouldn't want to go back to Herman. I agree that Messingham has much room for improvement as an offensive coordinator, but he hasn't been significantly worse (could argue he's been better) than our previous OC.
    Agree. We are parsing a lot of data that suggests Mess is terrible at making in-game adjustments that lead to more second half scoring. But if you look at Herman's stats his last year, yes the points went up in the second half, but that was not hard to accomplish since his first half numbers sucked rocks.

    The hard truth is that ISU's offense has underperformed for YEARS. We used to think it was a QB thing, but now that many people are on the SR bandwagon (0-3 as a starter against average competition), it must be an OC thing.

    Who knows where the truth lies. But we need to get this fixed. 20 points per game (with this inexperienced defense) will result in a 1-11 or 2-10 record this year, a huge step back for this program that we love.

    Coming into each of the last 3-4 years, we thought RB was a strength. I refuse to believe there is no talent with these guys. But week after week we see few explosive plays from the rushing game. Something is jacked up.



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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaselhu View Post
    It should also be noted that Messingham has produced more total points. Here are the scoring averages per game for the last 3 years.

    Year/Conf/Overall
    2012/24.2/24.5
    2011/21.6/22.7
    2010/21.5/21.7


    Messingham hasn't been lighting it up, but I wouldn't want to go back to Herman. I agree that Messingham has much room for improvement as an offensive coordinator, but he hasn't been significantly worse (could argue he's been better) than our previous OC.
    This furthers my point that we have talent because we are scoring more than before (although the Big 12 is trending way more towards offense and less towards defense) but for whatever reason, the offensive staff just cannot make adjustments or counter the adjustments made by opposing DCs in the second half.

    Based on the numbers, we basically need a 2 touchdown lead at halftime because we can't do anything offensively in the 2nd half.


    Last edited by cycloneworld; 09-04-2013 at 01:10 PM.

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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWarning View Post
    Agree. We are parsing a lot of data that suggests Mess is terrible at making in-game adjustments that lead to more second half scoring. But if you look at Herman's stats his last year, yes the points went up in the second half, but that was not hard to accomplish since his first half numbers sucked rocks.

    The hard truth is that ISU's offense has underperformed for YEARS. We used to think it was a QB thing, but now that many people are on the SR bandwagon (0-3 as a starter against average competition), it must be an OC thing.

    Who knows where the truth lies.
    But we need to get this fixed. 20 points per game (with this inexperienced defense) will result in a 1-11 or 2-10 record this year, a huge step back for this program that we love.

    Coming into each of the last 3-4 years, we thought RB was a strength. I refuse to believe there is no talent with these guys. But week after week we see few explosive plays from the rushing game. Something is jacked up.
    Schematic problem or personnel?

    To me its got to be one or the other.

    Supposedly our players have more talent now than in year one and they are recruited for this scheme vs Chiz's so . . .

    Either that or the coaches have been blowing smoke about the level of talent coming into the program.

    ISU and Kansas are the only teams in the B12 to score less than 30 pts/game last year.

    ISU happened to be decent defensively which helped them barely squeak out a 6-6 record. If ISU would have had even a top 40 offense in the country they win 8 maybe 9 games.

    To me this is scheme/coaching issues


    Last edited by CykoAGR; 09-04-2013 at 01:33 PM.
    “It’s beyond pride. It’s a restored trust. There’s a confidence again, a passion that teeters on swagger. More than anything, (Iowa State head coach Paul Rhoads) has restored the Iowa State “it” factor, the steadfast belief that it is great to be a Cyclone...the man’s enthusiasm is genuine to the core...”
    – columnist Sean Keeler, Des Moines Register

  4. #64
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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    How long before Todd Sturdy or Chris Klenakis start calling the plays? Anyone know why Klenakis was let go at Utah State?



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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by cycloneworld View Post
    Excellent Point. Here is scoring allowed by the ISU Defense per half w/ totals:

    Tulsa - 16, 7 = 23
    Iowa - 3, 3 = 6
    W Illinois - 0, 3 = 3
    Tech - 7, 17 = 24
    TCU - 10, 13 = 23
    KState - 17, 10 = 27
    OSU - 17, 14 = 31
    Baylor - 14, 7 = 21
    OU - 14, 21 = 35
    Texas - 20, 13 = 33
    KU - 17, 6 = 23
    WV - 17, 14 = 31
    Tulsa - 21, 10 = 31
    UNI - 21, 7 = 28

    Since 2012, The ISU defense has allowed less points in the second half 9 times plus the Iowa game which they allowed 3 pts in each half. So 10 times out of 14 they have allowed fewer second half points when compared to the first half.

    The offense isn't following through and doing their part.
    The results are really what you should expect to see on both sides of the ball. Our defense is more effective in the 2nd half just as our opponents defense typically is better in the 2nd half.

    One reason is often the score differential in the game. If one team is comfortably ahead, they typically play conservative and try to burn clock. If the other team is far behind, they may be forced to abandon their game plan and play right into the hands of a defense that doesn't have to worry about the running attack.

    Another reason is that often defenses start out the game playing a straight up vanilla style. It's one reason that the early pre-planned drives work so well. As the game progresses, the defenses throw more twists and turns at the offense. Many good d-coordinators purposely save at least one blitz package that they expect to work specifically for the 2nd half so that the offense can't work on a counter at half time. UNI, for example, appeared to bring a lot more pressure in the 2nd half. Based on one game thus far, this team appears to share the problem that recent teams have had at countering defensive pressure.

    There needs to be better recognition and execution from all 11 guys on offense to correct what I see as the primary shortcoming on offense. Everyone needs to read the pressure and make adjustments on the fly to routes and protection. I don't buy that it's the coaching as CPR has discussed what needs to be done in multiple interviews. One breakdown in a pressure situation blows up the play and we have been having too many breakdowns.



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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWarning View Post
    Agree. We are parsing a lot of data that suggests Mess is terrible at making in-game adjustments that lead to more second half scoring. But if you look at Herman's stats his last year, yes the points went up in the second half, but that was not hard to accomplish since his first half numbers sucked rocks.

    The hard truth is that ISU's offense has underperformed for YEARS. We used to think it was a QB thing, but now that many people are on the SR bandwagon (0-3 as a starter against average competition), it must be an OC thing.

    Who knows where the truth lies. But we need to get this fixed. 20 points per game (with this inexperienced defense) will result in a 1-11 or 2-10 record this year, a huge step back for this program that we love.

    Coming into each of the last 3-4 years, we thought RB was a strength. I refuse to believe there is no talent with these guys. But week after week we see few explosive plays from the rushing game. Something is jacked up.
    When given few opportunities, chances of seeing many are greatly diminished. Again, no running back had 10 carries on Saturday. All 4 combined for only 2 more carries than SBR.



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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by UNIGuy4Cy View Post
    How long before Todd Sturdy or Chris Klenakis start calling the plays? Anyone know why Klenakis was let go at Utah State?
    I don't think Klenakis was ever at Utah St. he came here from Arkansas because Beilima wanted to hire his own guys.



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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    The results are really what you should expect to see on both sides of the ball. Our defense is more effective in the 2nd half just as our opponents defense typically is better in the 2nd half.

    One reason is often the score differential in the game. If one team is comfortably ahead, they typically play conservative and try to burn clock. If the other team is far behind, they may be forced to abandon their game plan and play right into the hands of a defense that doesn't have to worry about the running attack.

    Another reason is that often defenses start out the game playing a straight up vanilla style. It's one reason that the early pre-planned drives work so well. As the game progresses, the defenses throw more twists and turns at the offense. Many good d-coordinators purposely save at least one blitz package that they expect to work specifically for the 2nd half so that the offense can't work on a counter at half time. UNI, for example, appeared to bring a lot more pressure in the 2nd half. Based on one game thus far, this team appears to share the problem that recent teams have had at countering defensive pressure.

    There needs to be better recognition and execution from all 11 guys on offense to correct what I see as the primary shortcoming on offense. Everyone needs to read the pressure and make adjustments on the fly to routes and protection. I don't buy that it's the coaching as CPR has discussed what needs to be done in multiple interviews. One breakdown in a pressure situation blows up the play and we have been having too many breakdowns.
    I don't think simply the lack of production is the big deal. It's the drastic drop off that's a big deal and how often we don't get anything. I would actually like to see yardages as well because I think that is just as good of a way, if not better, to see how the whole offense is functioning. I have a feeling the differences there may be even more than points.


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  9. #69
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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by isufbcurt View Post
    I don't think Klenakis was ever at Utah St. he came here from Arkansas because Beilima wanted to hire his own guys.
    He was for a while

    Chris Klenakis, most recently the offensive line coach for three seasons at Arkansas, was named to the same position at Iowa State under Cyclone head coach Paul Rhoads in January. Klenakis has 23 years of Division I experience and came to Arkansas from Nevada. At Nevada, as offensive coordinator he was at the helm of the "Pistol" offense that was prolifically productive, featuring a powerful running game led by the offensive line and, from 2007-09, current San Francisco 49er quarterback Colin Kaepernick.
    In 2012, Klenakis coached an offensive line that was third in the SEC in pass offense. His Razorback line allowed the third-fewest sacks in the SEC. Travis Swanson was named as an all-conference offensive lineman under Klenakis' coaching last season.
    In 2008 at Nevada, the Wolf Pack offense steamrolled over opposing defenses to the tune of a number of school records, including total offense, rushing yards and rushing touchdowns. In 2009, Klenakis and the offense eclipsed all those marks. Klenakis was the first coordinator in NCAA Division I history to coach an offense that led the nation in rushing (2009) and passing (1997) during his career

    The Wolf Pack had three 1,000-yard rushers during their record-setting 2009 season, the only school in NCAA history to feature a trio of players to reach the 1,000-yard mark on the ground.

    Honestly I think Sturdy and Klenakis have way more OC experience than Messingham. I think Klenakis should have a hand in this.

    Prior to his most recent stint as offensive coordinator at Nevada, he was offensive coordinator at Southern Mississippi (2000-02) and spent one year at Central Missouri (2003). Klenakis is a former two-time Nevada High School Coach of the Year.



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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by CyVik7 View Post
    When I think about our offense, I didn't see us take full advantage of the pistol on Sat night. Yes it is designed to run read option out of it, but I think you could do a lot of zone blocking and run plays with that formation also (see Oklahoma). There was a play I remember seeing Sat night where we ran a zone blocking scheme to the right and handed it off. I don't think we gained all that much from it, but the whole D of UNI flowed with the Oline. I think you could run some really effective play-action with that type of blocking scheme. So, we know that they have it in their playbook. It just keeps coming back to Mess calling those types of plays..... ugh.
    Let's just say it. Mess plays it too conservative, too close to the vest, too stodgy, too simple, too limited, too obvious.


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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by BigCojones View Post
    Good OC & DC's are like proffesional chest players. They know how to counter and think ahead of their opponent. Messingham is just moving pieces and doesnt have the gift of a brilliant offensive mind. DCs are able to adjust and he doesnt know how to counter.
    Just plain and simple its been an experiment gone bad.
    Yeah, we could call plays with a computer in the pressbox better than this.


    CFH HMagic bball season next year.
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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by UNIGuy4Cy View Post
    He was for a while

    Chris Klenakis, most recently the offensive line coach for three seasons at Arkansas, was named to the same position at Iowa State under Cyclone head coach Paul Rhoads in January. Klenakis has 23 years of Division I experience and came to Arkansas from Nevada. At Nevada, as offensive coordinator he was at the helm of the "Pistol" offense that was prolifically productive, featuring a powerful running game led by the offensive line and, from 2007-09, current San Francisco 49er quarterback Colin Kaepernick.
    In 2012, Klenakis coached an offensive line that was third in the SEC in pass offense. His Razorback line allowed the third-fewest sacks in the SEC. Travis Swanson was named as an all-conference offensive lineman under Klenakis' coaching last season.
    In 2008 at Nevada, the Wolf Pack offense steamrolled over opposing defenses to the tune of a number of school records, including total offense, rushing yards and rushing touchdowns. In 2009, Klenakis and the offense eclipsed all those marks. Klenakis was the first coordinator in NCAA Division I history to coach an offense that led the nation in rushing (2009) and passing (1997) during his career

    The Wolf Pack had three 1,000-yard rushers during their record-setting 2009 season, the only school in NCAA history to feature a trio of players to reach the 1,000-yard mark on the ground.

    Honestly I think Sturdy and Klenakis have way more OC experience than Messingham. I think Klenakis should have a hand in this.

    Prior to his most recent stint as offensive coordinator at Nevada, he was offensive coordinator at Southern Mississippi (2000-02) and spent one year at Central Missouri (2003). Klenakis is a former two-time Nevada High School Coach of the Year.
    LOL


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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by UNIGuy4Cy View Post
    He was for a while

    Chris Klenakis, most recently the offensive line coach for three seasons at Arkansas, was named to the same position at Iowa State under Cyclone head coach Paul Rhoads in January. Klenakis has 23 years of Division I experience and came to Arkansas from Nevada. At Nevada, as offensive coordinator he was at the helm of the "Pistol" offense that was prolifically productive, featuring a powerful running game led by the offensive line and, from 2007-09, current San Francisco 49er quarterback Colin Kaepernick.
    In 2012, Klenakis coached an offensive line that was third in the SEC in pass offense. His Razorback line allowed the third-fewest sacks in the SEC. Travis Swanson was named as an all-conference offensive lineman under Klenakis' coaching last season.
    In 2008 at Nevada, the Wolf Pack offense steamrolled over opposing defenses to the tune of a number of school records, including total offense, rushing yards and rushing touchdowns. In 2009, Klenakis and the offense eclipsed all those marks. Klenakis was the first coordinator in NCAA Division I history to coach an offense that led the nation in rushing (2009) and passing (1997) during his career

    The Wolf Pack had three 1,000-yard rushers during their record-setting 2009 season, the only school in NCAA history to feature a trio of players to reach the 1,000-yard mark on the ground.

    Honestly I think Sturdy and Klenakis have way more OC experience than Messingham. I think Klenakis should have a hand in this.

    Prior to his most recent stint as offensive coordinator at Nevada, he was offensive coordinator at Southern Mississippi (2000-02) and spent one year at Central Missouri (2003). Klenakis is a former two-time Nevada High School Coach of the Year.
    Am I blind? I don't see anything about Utah State.



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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by isufbcurt View Post
    Am I blind? I don't see anything about Utah State.
    I think our friend thinks Nevada and USU are the same.


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    Re: Offensive Ineptitude in 2nd Half

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    I think our friend thinks Nevada and USU are the same.
    Ok I was going nuts trying to figure out where he was getting Utah State.



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