Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18
  1. #1
    Starter
    Points: 8,628, Level: 27
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 122
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    751
    Points
    8,628
    Level
    27
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 28
    Given: 81

    Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Didn't want to hijack the Volt thread, but it reminded me of a discussion I had with a friend of mine a while ago about cost of hybrid vehicles v. savings on gas cost.

    Disclaimer: I'm all about saving the planet and all, and if the vehicles were close to the same cost, I would buy a hybrid. I get it - global warming is real and all that jazz. (Please don't send me to the cave!)

    But it seems to me the idea of the great savings on fuel for hybrids is a bit of a misnomer. Let's use Fords for this discussion, just because I already drive a focus so that's what I was thinking about in my original discussion. A new 2013 Ford C-Max hybrid is supposed to get 47 mpg - let's give it 50 mpg. A new 2013 Ford Focus is supposed to get 26/36 mpg city/highway - let's give it 25 mpg.

    The C-Max costs about $30,000, while the Focus costs about $20,000. So approximately $10,000 cost difference.

    If gas is $5/gal (which it isn't, but let's over-estimate and make the math easier), that's 2000 more gallons of gasoline you can buy for your Focus than you can for your C-Max.

    Since the gas mileage in the C-Max is approximately twice as good, you will reach this break-even point when you have bought 2000 gallons of gas for your C-Max and 4000 gallons of gas for your Focus.

    But it will take 100,000 miles in your C-Max or Focus to have to purchase this much gasoline! I don't know how long everyone out there runs their vehicles, but 100,000 is about the time I start thinking about getting a new one.

    So it will take approximately the lifetime of the vehicle to make up for the added cost. And this is in a situation that is skewed favorably for the hybrid (low cost differential, high gas cost, over-estimation of hybrid gas mileage, underestimation of non-hybrid gas mileage).

    Now if you drive 100,000 miles every three years v. every 8 or 10 years, that's a consideration, but I just don't see how the idea that hybrids save so much money has so much traction.

    Am I missing something? Thoughts?



  2. #2
    Pro
    Points: 132,718, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 3.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    stateofmind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Ankeny
    Posts
    2,585
    Points
    132,718
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 50
    Given: 112

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Thanks for not hijacking my thread, it's full of off rail discussions. I don't think there is a "right" answer. It's what your intent is. Just like a mortgage, do you pay points down? If you're staying a defined number of years, then you wouldn't pay the points. If you are getting rid of a vehicle before 100,000 miles, I would say stay with gas. (Evil climate change hater!) Of course the smart idea is to move closer to your work and ride your bike. Which you better only purchase one that won't drop in value because that's just throwing money into a hole.



  3. #3
    Addict
    Points: 201,698, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 13.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    longtimeclone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Up north
    Posts
    7,693
    Points
    201,698
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 53
    Given: 26

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    When hybrids first started appearing there were tax credits for them which brought the price down some or increased the payback period.

    I think if people are strictly buying them to save money at the pump then it is a terrible idea, but if they were doing it for more environmental reasons then it makes sense because they do use less gas.



  4. #4
    Legend
    Points: 265,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 37.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    chuckd4735's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Ankeny, Iowa
    Posts
    14,068
    Points
    265,705
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 555
    Given: 136

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Dont forget about the cost of hybrid batteries when they need replaced. IIRC, they cost over $2k.



  5. #5
    Starter
    Points: 20,874, Level: 44
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 776
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    mfelske's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    688
    Points
    20,874
    Level
    44
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 11
    Given: 21

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    I agree with you. In general it takes almost the life of a car to get back the cost difference in buying a hybrid. I drive a hybrid and it's not because it made financial sense. I was willing to pay extra for being a little more green.



  6. #6
    Hall-Of-Famer
    Points: 167,028, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 15.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    NickTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Johnston
    Posts
    3,755
    Points
    167,028
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 158
    Given: 193

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mfelske View Post
    I agree with you. In general it takes almost the life of a car to get back the cost difference in buying a hybrid. I drive a hybrid and it's not because it made financial sense. I was willing to pay extra for being a little more green.
    I disagree with all the green bullcrap, but I'd respect more people if they'd just say what you did.

    Any time I've done the math like ojoe did, it doesn't pencil out. Same goes for people who sell their old SUV to buy a new car to save 8 mpg. At a certain gas price and certain miles driven the math works maybe, but usually extreme scenarios.

    If you have other, less quantifiable reasons, that's fine.



  7. #7
    Starter
    Points: 20,239, Level: 43
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 511
    Overall activity: 2.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    889
    Points
    20,239
    Level
    43
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 11
    Given: 0

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    I'm not familiar with the Ford C-Max or for that matter the Ford Focus but there must be some difference other than the hybrid for $10,000 so your numbers are a little off to start with. I think a Toyota Camry Hybrid is about $4K more than the non-hybrid so that is a better starting price for your calculations. I suspect it is still hard to justify a hybrid based on gas savings alone, but then again if your primary objective is to save money then a much bigger mistake is looking at new cars to begin with.



  8. #8
    Legend
    Points: 203,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesVeteran50000 Experience Points
    dmclone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    50131
    Posts
    13,315
    Points
    203,274
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 205
    Given: 305

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    A couple of things to think about:

    #1. Besides the Prius, a lot of hybrids are not returning the mileage that the owners see on the sticker in every day driving. The CMax is a perfect example of this. Diesels on the other hand always seem to get better then what's on the sticker.

    #2 Just in the last few years there are a lot of cars that are getting great gas mileage without being hybrids. My wife had a 2008 Nissan Rogue with 160hp and it got 23mpg. She now drives an Acura RDX, which is a lot bigger, and has 280hp and she is getting the same mileage. Things like cylinder deactivation, great transmissions (7 and 8speeds plus CVT), weight savings, etc are doing a lot to make normal vehicles get great gas mileage. It's hard to justify a $5-10K premium on a car that already gets 35mpg.



  9. #9
    Pro
    Points: 47,022, Level: 67
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,328
    Overall activity: 1.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Burnsville, MN
    Posts
    2,923
    Points
    47,022
    Level
    67
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 68
    Given: 15

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    One thing to consider is that a hybrid seems to keep a better resale value.

    Was talking to a friend from Scotland the other day, his sister over there just got some little diesel car that gets like 80mpg or something ridiculous like that. It has always surprised me that the US hasn't taken to turbo diesel.



  10. #10
    Speechless
    Points: 728,112, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 50.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranCreated Album pictures50000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    Cyclonepride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    A pineapple under the sea
    Posts
    47,073
    Points
    728,112
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,081
    Given: 575

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    I would like to see a side by side comparison between electricity and gas as far as environmental impact and efficiency. Electricity does not come from rainbows.



  11. #11
    Speechless
    Points: 646,075, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 39.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteranOverdrive
    3TrueFans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Ames
    Posts
    23,658
    Points
    646,075
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,363
    Given: 127

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I would like to see a side by side comparison between electricity and gas as far as environmental impact and efficiency. Electricity does not come from rainbows.
    It comes from clouds I think, the rainbows come after.



  12. #12
    Hall-Of-Famer
    Points: 58,433, Level: 74
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 117
    Overall activity: 1.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,351
    Points
    58,433
    Level
    74
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 23
    Given: 0

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheGreat View Post
    I disagree with all the green bullcrap, but I'd respect more people if they'd just say what you did.

    Any time I've done the math like ojoe did, it doesn't pencil out. Same goes for people who sell their old SUV to buy a new car to save 8 mpg. At a certain gas price and certain miles driven the math works maybe, but usually extreme scenarios.

    If you have other, less quantifiable reasons, that's fine.
    I don't see why people are always worried about the quantifiable reasons. I don't own a hybrid, but it seems like everyone who argues against a hybrid talks about the cost. If cost were all that matters, then almost no one should buy a V6 if a 4 cylinder is available, most people shouldn't buy a 4 wheel drive for a car they are just driving to work (even in the Iowa snow, you're okay most of the time with a 2 wheel drive). How many people really need a sunroof, or a rear spoiler, all the other addons.



  13. #13
    Starter
    Points: 20,239, Level: 43
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 511
    Overall activity: 2.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    889
    Points
    20,239
    Level
    43
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 11
    Given: 0

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I would like to see a side by side comparison between electricity and gas as far as environmental impact and efficiency. Electricity does not come from rainbows.

    Well, at least you didn't just come in and yell "Coal!". The thing with electricity is that it can come from many, many different sources but gas really only comes from one. Even if some of those electricity sources are worse today I think over time electricity will only get cleaner. The other thing is that any technology needs early adopters to pay a high entry cost to establish a market and eventually drive costs down. Personally I'm willing to trade a small amount of additional pollution today in order to have significantly less in the future.



  14. #14
    Speechless
    Points: 392,549, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 100.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Wesley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Omaha
    Posts
    57,340
    Points
    392,549
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 340
    Given: 268

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by stateofmind View Post
    Thanks for not hijacking my thread, it's full of off rail discussions. I don't think there is a "right" answer. It's what your intent is. Just like a mortgage, do you pay points down? If you're staying a defined number of years, then you wouldn't pay the points. If you are getting rid of a vehicle before 100,000 miles, I would say stay with gas. (Evil climate change hater!) Of course the smart idea is to move closer to your work and ride your bike. Which you better only purchase one that won't drop in value because that's just throwing money into a hole.
    Stay with a bigger gas guzzler now because by 2020 Cafe standards, you will have a dink for a car. Enjoy life now.


    CFH HMagic bball season next year.
    Let my Fred's Four Horsemen ride: Georges, Hogue, Nader, and McKay.

  15. #15
    Pro
    Points: 57,514, Level: 74
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 1,036
    Overall activity: 4.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    2,296
    Points
    57,514
    Level
    74
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 41
    Given: 0

    Re: Hybrid v. Non-hybrid cost discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ojoe2317 View Post
    Didn't want to hijack the Volt thread, but it reminded me of a discussion I had with a friend of mine a while ago about cost of hybrid vehicles v. savings on gas cost.

    Disclaimer: I'm all about saving the planet and all, and if the vehicles were close to the same cost, I would buy a hybrid. I get it - global warming is real and all that jazz. (Please don't send me to the cave!)

    But it seems to me the idea of the great savings on fuel for hybrids is a bit of a misnomer. Let's use Fords for this discussion, just because I already drive a focus so that's what I was thinking about in my original discussion. A new 2013 Ford C-Max hybrid is supposed to get 47 mpg - let's give it 50 mpg. A new 2013 Ford Focus is supposed to get 26/36 mpg city/highway - let's give it 25 mpg.

    The C-Max costs about $30,000, while the Focus costs about $20,000. So approximately $10,000 cost difference.

    If gas is $5/gal (which it isn't, but let's over-estimate and make the math easier), that's 2000 more gallons of gasoline you can buy for your Focus than you can for your C-Max.

    Since the gas mileage in the C-Max is approximately twice as good, you will reach this break-even point when you have bought 2000 gallons of gas for your C-Max and 4000 gallons of gas for your Focus.

    But it will take 100,000 miles in your C-Max or Focus to have to purchase this much gasoline! I don't know how long everyone out there runs their vehicles, but 100,000 is about the time I start thinking about getting a new one.

    So it will take approximately the lifetime of the vehicle to make up for the added cost. And this is in a situation that is skewed favorably for the hybrid (low cost differential, high gas cost, over-estimation of hybrid gas mileage, underestimation of non-hybrid gas mileage).

    Now if you drive 100,000 miles every three years v. every 8 or 10 years, that's a consideration, but I just don't see how the idea that hybrids save so much money has so much traction.

    Am I missing something? Thoughts?
    One thing you've left out is the lifecycle costs and impacts of the different cars. Someone already alluded to the batteries, but from mining the rare earth minerals (99% come from China) to battery disposal to the impact of incremental power generation needed for the system... it still doesn't pencil out.

    I'm not an early adopter of any technology and from some readings I think the sales pitch of cleaner and greener are WAY oversold based on actual experience.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • Football
  • Iowa State vs. North Dakota State
  • August 30, 2014
  • 11:00 AM