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Thread: New FB Coach

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    Re: New FB Coach

    You said he's new to this level, so he can't be a retread. You can't have it both ways.



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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by clonedude View Post
    The pistol is the shotgun. But the RB is directly behind the QB, so the RB is actually going forward with momentum when he gets the handoff versus standing still. Much more effective IMO.
    No, the pistol is the pistol. They also aren't standing still when they get the handoff. Moving straight forward like that also takes away lateral capabilities which is pretty important to a zone blocking running scheme. I would also ask what your idea of "power" running is.


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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by RustShack View Post
    You said he's new to this level, so he can't be a retread.

    When are we going to stop using archaic terms for those with mental disabilities as insults? And you didn't even spell it right. Derp. Personally, I think all this arguing is retreaded.




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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by RustShack View Post
    You said he's new to this level, so he can't be a retread. You can't have it both ways.
    Lower levels cannot have retreads? He has coached at many places without moving up prior to ISU- think about that. He is a low-level retread.

    I did not want to say it, but being a retread at this level would be a step-up for Mess. He is okay as a position coach, and could develop into a good OC in a few years under the tutelage of Sturdy and Klenakis, but why not just hire Klenakis (or even Sturdy)?


    Last edited by swarthmoreCY; 01-26-2013 at 01:49 AM.

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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    Several misunderstandings here, but I think you are getting closer. You are asking the right questions: what does it mean to have your own offense?

    1.)Not a fallacy at all. You are using a different definition of what it means to run someone else's offense. By your definition, no one has their own offense. It is subtle and not easily delineated, but there is a difference between running parts of several different offenses, and running someone else's offense. The fact is every offense shares concepts with other offenses. The rules have not changed drastically. Most everything that is innovative is a result of taking parts from other offenses and creating a new product . That is largely the point. Some are experts in how these parts fit together to form a specific product. Others just have a collection of parts. It is on a continuum, with few coaches "having their own offense". However, relatively speaking (compared to other OC's), Mess does not have a proven product developed from taking ideas from other offenses (like everyone does with your definition), and knowing it in and out. Which leads to...

    2.)The running someone else's comment. The main defense, if not only, of the Mess hire was continuity. This contention neccessitates to a large degree Mess is running Herman's offense (which by your definition is also running someone else's offense, and by my definition has taken pieces of other offenses to formulate his own).


    You are incorrect if you think there are not better OC's than Mess available to hire every off-season. Sometimes coaches that have jobs even leave for another! The two statements in bold somewhat contradict. Mess is an okay position coach, but the definition of a retread.
    A lot of people on this site seem to be convinced that Mess is running someone else's offense, in which case all the coaches I pointed out are also running someone else's offense. By definition, some would say it's only a coach's offense when he creates it. I disagree. I was simply trying to state that a coach, like you said, can take pieces of another offense and use them for his own, which coach's do every day. Some on this sight (not me) say that Mess is running Herman's offense and that is why the offensive struggles have happened. That is the fallacy I pointed out. I simply called it Herman's offense to hopefully appeal to those better that see the offense as Herman's.



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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    He is a low-level retread.
    INAPPROPRIATE!

    You're a low level retread. How's that feel? Retread, retread, retread... at some point, we have to grow up.

    (I think....yeah, this is about as far as I can play this one out....)



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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Luth4Cy View Post
    Some on this sight (not me) say that Mess is running Herman's offense and that is why the offensive struggles have happened. That is the fallacy I pointed out .
    If you want to believe that Mess is not running largely Herman's offense, that would mean you were fallaciously over-stating the main benefit of hiring Mess- continuity. That would also mean that our offense, Mess's offense, is failing only because Mess is completely incompetent. I could go with that, but I prefer the more optimistic view that he could eventually be competent once he masters Herman's offense (in other words, make it his own), which also does not violate the continuity theory. You see, your stance has one fallacy, and completely marginalizes Mess.

    The best defense for Mess is that although we have little to go on to suggest he will be a successful Big 12 OC, we have too small of sample to rule it out. That is if you are okay with ISU being in the business of "ruling it out".


    Last edited by swarthmoreCY; 01-26-2013 at 03:20 AM.

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    Re: New FB Coach

    I would love to see us use the pistol. Make it our signature with a sweet name that might give us an identity around the country.


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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    No, the pistol is the pistol. They also aren't standing still when they get the handoff. Moving straight forward like that also takes away lateral capabilities which is pretty important to a zone blocking running scheme. I would also ask what your idea of "power" running is.
    Only if your particular play built to function that way. Zone blocking can be run in pro style, shotgun, spread, any formation really. A lot of running schemes that use zone blocking will only have a lateral adjustment of which of the 2 target gaps has the seam, which means very little lateral adjustment. The goal of the run play will determine the proper reads etc in a zone block system. If its an outside zone type play than allowing for lateral movement and staying on blocks longer is very important. If it is an inside zone type play than it is just about making quick reads and opening up a seam. Both are very effective and one of the great things about zone blocking is that it works well for all types of running systems. A lot of people tend to group zone blocking with wide splits, stretching out plays, etc. when in reality it works just as well with normal splits and quick hitting plays.

    I really see no reason why zone blocking cant be effective with the pistol. Just my opinion.



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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    If you want to believe that Mess is not running largely Herman's offense, that would mean you were fallaciously over-stating the main benefit of hiring Mess- continuity. That would also mean that our offense, Mess's offense, is failing only because Mess is completely incompetent. I could go with that, but I prefer the more optimistic view that he could eventually be competent once he masters Herman's offense (in other words, make it his own), which also does not violate the continuity theory. You see, your stance has one fallacy, and completely marginalizes Mess.

    The best defense for Mess is that although we have little to go on to suggest he will be a successful Big 12 OC, we have too small of sample to rule it out. That is if you are okay with ISU being in the business of "ruling it out".
    Let me make this clear. I think Mess was hired for continuity purposes and is running the same general offense that we ran with Tom Herman. I do not think that Mess's struggles are contingent on the fact that he wasn't the coach to originally install the offense. I do think his struggles may be because of his lack of experience in big time college football. I do think this offense has potential to be a quality Big 12 offense in the future, and I think last years struggles are mostly because of lack of athletes, poor line play (sometimes lineman playing out of position), and less than average QB play. These are all things that are fixable with simply better play opposed to a scheme change. That is why Mess was hired was to maintain that continuity. He knows how to coach the offense, and isn't simply an (under center coordinator, whatever that means) as I saw suggested once.



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    Re: New FB Coach

    He's going to be the o-line coach, outstanding hire! I hope we see more pistol in 2013 in combination with improved blocking.



  12. #87
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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Pille1895 View Post
    He's going to be the o-line coach, outstanding hire! I hope we see more pistol in 2013 in combination with improved blocking.

    I don't think you hire this particular coach if you do not intend to run some aspect of the pistol. They ran it (developed it) at Nevada when he was there, and Arkansas started running a version of it once he got there. I'm sure we will see some of it next year, and maybe a lot of it in the years to come.


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    Re: New FB Coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    We have one of those already.
    That is also the OC. The QB is the most important player on the field. Why not have a full time QB only coach?


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    Re: New FB Coach

    Chris Klenakis@FBCoachKJust completed a full tour of the new 20 Million dollar Bergstrom Football Complex. Awesome facility. First class #CyclONEnation


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