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  1. #31
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by IcSyU View Post
    Like I said, nearly any time you hear the phrase "over the back" used, it is likely the person has no idea what is going on. I can potentially legally go over your back and get a rebound if I'm taller than you are. That's not a foul.

    Most of the time when some idiot is yelling for over the back, they're looking for a push call from the referee. That requires exactly no explanation to anyone familiar with the English language.

    Same with the guy who thinks that it can't be a charge if the recipient's feet are moving. As long as you've established initial legal guarding position, you're good to go so long as you stay in legal guarding position. That's one of my biggest pet peeves watching college basketball. Guy jumps on a pump fake, stays vertical, gets jumped into, gets whistled for a blocking foul. No referee with a brain in their head is calling a blocking foul there. A good ref is going to let play continue.

    Same story with one of Percy's? fouls yesterday. He jumped straight up with his arms extended straight above his head after establishing legal guarding position and the guard jumped into him under the bucket. Percy gets called for the body foul. Absolute garbage.
    Like I said, over the back is a term everybody knows. Do you really think that if I'm calling for an over the back I'm doing so because I think that their guy jumped over our guy without touching him? Get real, I'm calling for it because I think he's fouling our guy while going up for the rebound. Oh, I guess I could amend it and instead say, "He's pushing our guy while going over his back". (how rediculous would that sound) Or, as you suggest I could call for "pushing". Here's how a conversation would go in the stands if I called for pushing.

    Me: He's pushing!
    Others: Pushing who?
    Me: #25 is fouling/pushing our guy
    Others: You mean he's fouling him while going up for the rebound?
    Me: Yeah
    Others: Why didn't you just say he went over the back? Everybody knows what means.

    Seriously dude, its semantics. Nobody is an idiot, or doesn't understand the rules just because they use generally accepted terminology. You could say someone is an idiot because they consistently beg the officials for incorrect calls, but the use of the term "over the back" does not make them an idiot.



  2. #32
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by Ficklone02 View Post
    Like I said, over the back is a term everybody knows. Do you really think that if I'm calling for an over the back I'm doing so because I think that their guy jumped over our guy without touching him? Get real, I'm calling for it because I think he's fouling our guy while going up for the rebound. Oh, I guess I could amend it and instead say, "He's pushing our guy while going over his back". (how rediculous would that sound) Or, as you suggest I could call for "pushing". Here's how a conversation would go in the stands if I called for pushing.

    Me: He's pushing!
    Others: Pushing who?
    Me: #25 is fouling/pushing our guy
    Others: You mean he's fouling him while going up for the rebound?
    Me: Yeah
    Others: Why didn't you just say he went over the back? Everybody knows what means.

    Seriously dude, its semantics. Nobody is an idiot, or doesn't understand the rules just because they use generally accepted terminology. You could say someone is an idiot because they consistently beg the officials for incorrect calls, but the use of the term "over the back" does not make them an idiot.
    Shhhh, he's feeling self-important. Let him have this moment.



  3. #33
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    Re: The charge calls

    Like many of you, I thought the numerous whistles made the game very frustrating to watch. It was clear Drake's strategy was to try and draw charging fouls anytime Iowa State's big men went to the rim. The charge call on Niang was flat out missed in my mind. Drake kept grabbing and holding on both ends, which makes life difficult on officials and if called closely can make for a miserable game to watch.

    Other than the Niang charge and the foul on Percy when he appeared to have his hands vertical, I don't think there were many egregious whistles, but the over abundance of fouls and Drake's grabbing/falling strategy made it seem worse than usual.


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  4. #34
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by CtownCyclone View Post
    Shhhh, he's feeling self-important. Let him have this moment.
    He is feeling self-important. And I would bet the majority of announcers use the term over the back.

    I bet he'd also have a problem with announcers, especially in football, saying "player X left his feet to make the hit". Everyone knowing full well that you can't actually leave your feet, you leave the ground. Just the generally accepted terminology.



  5. #35
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by Billups06 View Post
    He is feeling self-important. And I would bet the majority of announcers use the term over the back.

    I bet he'd also have a problem with announcers, especially in football, saying "player X left his feet to make the hit". Everyone knowing full well that you can't actually leave your feet, you leave the ground. Just the generally accepted terminology.
    Start officiating. Tell me the combined IQ of those who yell "over the back" and report back please. It isn't high.

    And if that's truly how a conversation with those around you in the stands would go, I pity you because you're surrounded by morons.

    Instead of listening to people in a crowd, listen to the knowledgeable people...like the coaches? Ever heard Fred say "That's over the back!" Hell no he hasn't, nor do his twins when you officiate them.

    I stand by my argument: The majority of people who call for an "over the back" foul are clueless. All of them? Absolutely not. Over the back was a call in middle school to protect the smaller kids when you're teaching fundamentals at lower levels.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Give it up. You're probably the only one who thinks the "majority of people who call for an 'over the back' foul are clueless." Many of us understand the rules and that you can actually get a rebound while going over the top of someone. But in many of those cases, the guy who is going "over the back" to get the rebound is fouling the other player while he is in the process of doing so unless he is just vastly superior athletically and in terms of talent.



  7. #37
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by IcSyU View Post
    Start officiating. Tell me the combined IQ of those who yell "over the back" and report back please. It isn't high.

    And if that's truly how a conversation with those around you in the stands would go, I pity you because you're surrounded by morons.

    Instead of listening to people in a crowd, listen to the knowledgeable people...like the coaches? Ever heard Fred say "That's over the back!" Hell no he hasn't, nor do his twins when you officiate them.

    I stand by my argument: The majority of people who call for an "over the back" foul are clueless. All of them? Absolutely not. Over the back was a call in middle school to protect the smaller kids when you're teaching fundamentals at lower levels.
    I'm guessing your IQ is pretty low if you can't make the connection that "over the back" is the best way to communicate to those around you what you thought of a play. There are 10 players on a court, and if I just yell "he's pushing" that could mean anybody on the court. But if I yell "over the back" that pretty well pinpoints the two players involved in the play I want to talk about. Its the most effecient way for me in the stands to convey what I think I just saw to the people around me. I know you're deep into your argument, so you can't retract now, but stop while your behind.



  8. #38
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by andymhallman View Post
    I agree with you, ruxCYtable, that moving one's feet does not preclude one from taking a charge. But the guidelines the NCAA published for referees in March 2012 included this section:



    Committees address court surfacing - NCAA.com
    I don't officiate college basketball, obviously, but I am absolutely shocked that uses the term stationary and I'd bet Brent Blum would be as well. I work a lot of high school basketball and attend a lot of camps with college officials and I can tell you that the word stationary has never been used. It goes against everything I have ever been taught about officiating a block/charge situation. I'm going to forward your post to a friend who is a D-1 official and get his thoughts and report back.

    Although I think IcSyU is being a bit harsh by saying people who use the term "over and back" don't know basketball, I know where he is coming from and I'm sure Brent and every official on this board does. There are A LOT of people --mostly fans, but a surprising number of coaches -- who think there does not have to be contact for "over the back" to be called. Same with "moving screens." I've listened to fans and even coaches yell for moving screens all night long on plays where there was literally no contact whatsoever. My aforementioned friend who officiates D-1 even had a college coach try to tell him that there didn't have to be contact for an illegal screen to be called.

    The vast majority of people get it. It's a small percentage who don't and make everyone look bad, as with many things in life.

    Again, I didn't get to see yesterday's game and I'm kind of making a point this year to not defend officials because I am one but I will jump in and say something when I think there's a misunderstanding of rules. If nobody finds it useful I'll shut up and retreat to my bunker.



  9. #39
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    Re: The charge calls

    1. Something is wrong with 52 fouls in a 40 minute period. Basketball is supposed to be a fast paced game, and we did not see that yesterday. If I do my math correctly, there was a foul called about every 42 seconds in the game. Thats just over one "full" shot clock possession.

    2. People don't go to games to watch the refs blow whistles. What we saw yesterday were refs that wanted people to know they were there.

    3. Teams that go for the charge call every time they're on defense are a****ots. So the entire MVC? A****ots.


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  10. #40
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    Re: The charge calls

    Also, did anyone else see the Drake fan on TV calling for an intentional foul on McGee when he tried getting a charge call near the end of the game? Hilarious.


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  11. #41
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    Re: The charge calls

    Charging is the worst call in College basketball right now. Not saying it shouldn't exist, but the rules for it needs to be changed, a lot. I'm not saying they aren't valid calls as the rule stands now, but it slows the game down way too much and turns it into a soccer flopping match as opposed to a basketball game.



  12. #42
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by Clonefan94 View Post
    Charging is the worst call in College basketball right now. Not saying it shouldn't exist, but the rules for it needs to be changed, a lot. I'm not saying they aren't valid calls as the rule stands now, but it slows the game down way too much and turns it into a soccer flopping match as opposed to a basketball game.
    Illegal screens can give it a run for its money.



  13. #43
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by IcSyU View Post
    Illegal screens can give it a run for its money.
    Very true.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by andymhallman View Post
    I agree with you, ruxCYtable, that moving one's feet does not preclude one from taking a charge. But the guidelines the NCAA published for referees in March 2012 included this section:



    Committees address court surfacing - NCAA.com
    I should have read your post more closely but I also heard back from my friend.

    This point of emphasis refers specifically to an airborne offensive player. Too many officials were allowing defenders to slide in under an offensive player who had left his feet to shoot or pass and draw a charge doing so. In this case, the defender must be in position prior to the offensive player leaving his feet. The rule has always been this way but it was felt a lot of these types of plays were being called incorrectly and it was made a point of emphasis.

    This situation does not refer to a dribbler, however. Once the defensive player has obtained legal guarding position in front of the dribbler, the burden is on the offensive player to avoid contact. If contact occurs on the torso, it is to be called a charge. If the offensive player gets his head and shoulders around the defender, which typically results in contact BELOW the torso, it is to be called a block.

    I hope this helps clarify these two situations. I'll shut up now.



  15. #45
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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by ISUCubswin View Post
    Also, did anyone else see the Drake fan on TV calling for an intentional foul on McGee when he tried getting a charge call near the end of the game? Hilarious.
    They have stupid fans, I bet they use the term over the back, ******* morons. How could someone be so stupid, to actually use the phrase "over the back". They don't know anything about basketball.



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