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    The charge calls

    I counted four charging calls against ISU in the Drake game, plus another offensive foul against McGee for hooking. Percy alone got two charge calls. I don't remember his first but his second looked like a flop. Niang's charge was too far under the basket and it was to a secondary defender, which I thought was not considered a charge according to the new rule, but even without the new rule it would have still been a close call. The defender who took Clyburn's charge was outside the circle but he looked to still be moving his feet at the time.

    The point of this thread is not just to harp on the refs, who I did not think were terrible or biased against ISU other than that they called charges too easily.

    What I'm interested in is statistics on charges. My impression is that Iowa State seems to commit a lot of them while the team rarely draws them on defense. In fact, I had that impression about last year's team, too. Does anybody keep stats on team charges specifically? What about offensive fouls in general?


    Last edited by andymhallman; 12-16-2012 at 03:18 PM. Reason: spelling

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    KFitzy87
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    Re: The charge calls

    One reason is the type of on-ball defense we play. Our posts swat alot as opposed to trying to draw charges



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    Re: The charge calls

    That always seems to happen vs MVC teams. In many cases the charge is such a BS call. A player gets beat and to help out and defend the basket a big slides in on or under a player going to score and gets a charge call. I bet if you watch BB games 9 out of 10 times a charge happens because a player got beat. Yes if you back in on a player or going one on one with him and he is set while you go to score, then yes it is a charge. But this calling charges as guys go full speed to an open basket and some guy sliding in is BS.


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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcy View Post
    That always seems to happen vs MVC teams. In many cases the charge is such a BS call. A player gets beat and to help out and defend the basket a big slides in on or under a player going to score and gets a charge call. I bet if you watch BB games 9 out of 10 times a charge happens because a player got beat. Yes if you back in on a player or going one on one with him and he is set while you go to score, then yes it is a charge. But this calling charges as guys go full speed to an open basket and some guy sliding in is BS.
    Yep, MVC teaches these her boys to draw charges. They seem to hustle more on defense and have less talent.


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    Re: The charge calls

    Royce was good for 1-2 charges a game last year. Looks like Percy or Clyborn is taking that role over



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    Re: The charge calls

    I thought the officiating was terrible. Not biased but definitely terrible.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by cyguytillidie View Post
    I thought the officiating was terrible. Not biased but definitely terrible.
    It really was. I dread the officiating when playing an MVC opponent..just do not care for the brand of basketball that comes of out there and for some reason I feel like we are complaining about some really bad or ticky-tack fouls as opposed to big 12 conference play.


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    Re: The charge calls

    Drake had 31 fouls. We had 21. We got the better end of the deal.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by nfrine View Post
    Drake had 31 fouls. We had 21. We got the better end of the deal.
    Don't kid yourself....a lot of Drake's fouls came late in the game as they started fouling with a lot of time left to try to get back into the game.

    Drake's game plan was very similar to last year's (and hey, it worked then, why not now?). That plan is to not go after the offensive boards at all and instead run back on defense and get set, so as to prevent fast break opportunities for us. A by-product of that plan is that their guys were in position to just stand there like logs as our guys came toward the basket. It was obvious that their guys were coached to hit the deck at any sort of contact, and the refs were falling for it.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by ISUAlum2002 View Post
    Don't kid yourself....a lot of Drake's fouls came late in the game as they started fouling with a lot of time left to try to get back into the game.

    Drake's game plan was very similar to last year's (and hey, it worked then, why not now?). That plan is to not go after the offensive boards at all and instead run back on defense and get set, so as to prevent fast break opportunities for us. A by-product of that plan is that their guys were in position to just stand there like logs as our guys came toward the basket. It was obvious that their guys were coached to hit the deck at any sort of contact, and the refs were falling for it.
    LOL, excellent analysis. True and right.


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    Re: The charge calls

    It's really hard to see the value of the arc thing in front of the rim. Those guys were going to hit the deck every time anyone made a move in a little bit of traffic.

    I think that's what made it "bad" officiating, they called it close, then not so close, and close again.

    With the way they called the game, their whole roster could have been gone through by the 10 minute mark of the second half.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by andymhallman View Post
    Clyburn's charge was outside the circle be he looked to still be moving his feet at the time.
    I didn't get to watch the game so I can't comment on the officiating in general. But in regards to your comment, this absolutely does not matter. The myth that a defender has to be perfectly set to draw a charge has been put forth by TV commentators who have never read a rule book. There is nothing -- repeat: nothing -- in the rule book that says a defender has to be set to draw a charge. As long as the defender is not moving toward the offensive player, torso-to-torso contact is a charge.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by ruxCYtable View Post
    I didn't get to watch the game so I can't comment on the officiating in general. But in regards to your comment, this absolutely does not matter. The myth that a defender has to be perfectly set to draw a charge has been put forth by TV commentators who have never read a rule book. There is nothing -- repeat: nothing -- in the rule book that says a defender has to be set to draw a charge. As long as the defender is not moving toward the offensive player, torso-to-torso contact is a charge.
    I agree with you, ruxCYtable, that moving one's feet does not preclude one from taking a charge. But the guidelines the NCAA published for referees in March 2012 included this section:

    Before the offensive player (with the ball) becomes airborne, the defender must have two feet on the floor, be facing the opponent and be stationary to draw a charge. Otherwise it should be a blocking foul.

    Secondary defenders (help defenders) moving forward or to the side are also in violation, and these should be blocking fouls.

    Contact that is “through the chest” is not de facto proof of a charge. The rule in its entirety must be considered before determining a foul.

    In some cases, it appears that a defender is being rewarded solely for being outside the arc, without considering the other aspects of the rules.
    http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-...ourt-surfacing


    Last edited by andymhallman; 12-16-2012 at 03:39 PM. Reason: fix link

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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by andymhallman View Post
    I agree with you, ruxCYtable, that moving one's feet does not preclude one from taking a charge. But the guidelines the NCAA published for referees in March 2012 included this section:



    Committees address court surfacing - NCAA.com
    I don't officiate college basketball, obviously, but I am absolutely shocked that uses the term stationary and I'd bet Brent Blum would be as well. I work a lot of high school basketball and attend a lot of camps with college officials and I can tell you that the word stationary has never been used. It goes against everything I have ever been taught about officiating a block/charge situation. I'm going to forward your post to a friend who is a D-1 official and get his thoughts and report back.

    Although I think IcSyU is being a bit harsh by saying people who use the term "over and back" don't know basketball, I know where he is coming from and I'm sure Brent and every official on this board does. There are A LOT of people --mostly fans, but a surprising number of coaches -- who think there does not have to be contact for "over the back" to be called. Same with "moving screens." I've listened to fans and even coaches yell for moving screens all night long on plays where there was literally no contact whatsoever. My aforementioned friend who officiates D-1 even had a college coach try to tell him that there didn't have to be contact for an illegal screen to be called.

    The vast majority of people get it. It's a small percentage who don't and make everyone look bad, as with many things in life.

    Again, I didn't get to see yesterday's game and I'm kind of making a point this year to not defend officials because I am one but I will jump in and say something when I think there's a misunderstanding of rules. If nobody finds it useful I'll shut up and retreat to my bunker.



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    Re: The charge calls

    Quote Originally Posted by andymhallman View Post
    I agree with you, ruxCYtable, that moving one's feet does not preclude one from taking a charge. But the guidelines the NCAA published for referees in March 2012 included this section:



    Committees address court surfacing - NCAA.com
    I should have read your post more closely but I also heard back from my friend.

    This point of emphasis refers specifically to an airborne offensive player. Too many officials were allowing defenders to slide in under an offensive player who had left his feet to shoot or pass and draw a charge doing so. In this case, the defender must be in position prior to the offensive player leaving his feet. The rule has always been this way but it was felt a lot of these types of plays were being called incorrectly and it was made a point of emphasis.

    This situation does not refer to a dribbler, however. Once the defensive player has obtained legal guarding position in front of the dribbler, the burden is on the offensive player to avoid contact. If contact occurs on the torso, it is to be called a charge. If the offensive player gets his head and shoulders around the defender, which typically results in contact BELOW the torso, it is to be called a block.

    I hope this helps clarify these two situations. I'll shut up now.



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