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  1. #31
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    I want an offense that is fast enough to keep Defensive Coordinators out of the game. I want an OU type of offense all game. Think about how bad we might be if teams were able to take Wally out of the game because they got to the line so fast that the players didn't have time to look over to see what play he wants to call.



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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    At least I got it in the right forum though huh. He also stated we get blitzed more. It's hard for 5 to block 5, let alone 6. So, if we aren't pass blocking well and we aren't catching the ball, the solution has to be to drop back and throw it without any motion or anything right? The pass blocking hasn't been awful when it was straight up. You have your two backs averaging 4.4 and 5.1 ypc. That's not great but it certainly isn't awful. Your QBs are averaging 6 per attempt. That number becomes about 5.5 without the bombs to Lenz. The play calling is all over the place. There just is no reason anything is run when it's run.
    Odd that you put those two statements together, and most of the times those two backs only have a high ypc because they break out an occasional long run. Just like subtracting the "long bombs to Lenz".

    Not criticizing, simply saying that you're...ah, never mind. Have a good night, all!




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  3. #33
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    I agree with the OPs assessment. But would go one step further in putting the majority of the blame on Mess and the offensive coaches. Mess calls plays like a JV high school coach calls plays. I wonder if he can see the game in front of him sometimes. If you are running it down someones throat don't stop, that means you have an advantage, if they adjust then you adjust, but you can't stop doing what works. Our play calling constantly stops doing what is working. The blocking schemes need to be to the point that if the QB sees rollover LB coverage on the RO, that he can pop a pass to the side away from the rolling LB. The offense never gets this rhythm because it is constantly interrupted, this all falls on the play caller.


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  4. #34
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aclone View Post
    Odd that you put those two statements together, and most of the times those two backs only have a high ypc because they break out an occasional long run. Just like subtracting the "long bombs to Lenz".

    Not criticizing, simply saying that you're...ah, never mind. Have a good night, all!
    Ok, take out the two biggest runs of the year if you want. They were that big. We're averaging less than 6 YPA everything included. That's awful, yet we have done nothing different through 10 games. Nothing. There hasn't been a game yet where we just kept running. Against TCU we averaged 9 YPA with two bombs. That's just a good number. It's not even the passing that bothers me. It's the fact we don't do anything to try and help the passing game become easier. Manny Diaz saw that and destroyed it. Steele and Jared are parts of the problem, sure but if no one can figure out that when a slot receiver has no one within 10 yards of him that it is likely in our best interest to just throw it out to him, that's on the coaches. When Jarvis West runs it in from 20 yards on the end around and you don't run that motion again, it's on the coaches. When Shontrelle goes around the edge for 20 and you don't go right back to it or run something off it, that's on the coaches.

    The irony of all this is that it seems like our offense is what our defense wants every team to do. Make teams run as many plays as possible to beat you.


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  5. #35
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cycsk View Post
    Summary: We should be predictable and rely on our run plays until they stop it. Our yards-per-play are enough to rely solely on it. If they make changes to stop the run, we should spot it and take advantage of their adjustment.

    Right now, we pass so much that the defenses know we want to go to it, so they never make adjustments to stop our runs. We will call pass plays and go away from the effective run on our own.
    Great original post & analysis, and great summary, too.

    I'm not enough of tactician to know the merits, but seems worth trying.



  6. #36
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tre4ISU View Post
    Ok, take out the two biggest runs of the year if you want. They were that big. We're averaging less than 6 YPA everything included. That's awful, yet we have done nothing different through 10 games. Nothing. There hasn't been a game yet where we just kept running. Against TCU we averaged 9 YPA with two bombs. That's just a good number. It's not even the passing that bothers me. It's the fact we don't do anything to try and help the passing game become easier. Manny Diaz saw that and destroyed it. Steele and Jared are parts of the problem, sure but if no one can figure out that when a slot receiver has no one within 10 yards of him that it is likely in our best interest to just throw it out to him, that's on the coaches. When Jarvis West runs it in from 20 yards on the end around and you don't run that motion again, it's on the coaches. When Shontrelle goes around the edge for 20 and you don't go right back to it or run something off it, that's on the coaches.

    The irony of all this is that it seems like our offense is what our defense wants every team to do. Make teams run as many plays as possible to beat you.
    Tre4ISU,

    Good points, but I question a few things. At my sons high school, they have a limited number of plays, yet every play has several, maybe up to 6, different things that can occur, including run v pass. The difference is every play has several reads that need to be made, virtually each player need to make a read and do something based on that read. The lineman (especially if he's pulling need to block differently based on the defenses position and movement. The receivers run a multitude of routes based on there reads and the QB needs to adjust his play based on his reads and he may have 5 different receivers that he has to make the same reads for as the receivers make. That's a lot for high school kids to do, but they do it and usually very well. I see Jantz and I see a guy that collapses under pressure, focuses on doing just one thing. And 9 out of 10 times throws an errant pass. Barnett while better doesn't have the physical ability that Jantz has, so that's a problem too. But overall, I'd say our biggest problem is Jantz not being able to pick up the reads and check-off plays. Just my humble opinion and it's probably wrong. :o)



  7. #37
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    I like the post, especially the point about sticking with something that is working. Texas has had a horrible run defense all year and an average pass defense. We're running the ball with ease on 3 or 4 drives and what do we do...we switch to the incomplete pass play and the drive stalls. It was the most maddening aspect of ISU football I have experienced since Mac was coaching and he was ******* away a lead by trying to run the clock out.

    The other point that I liked is the fact that we don't change the play at the last minute to exploit what the defense is lined up to do.

    My only problem is that I think you are giving out QBs and WRs a little too much credit. The OL has been more solid than they have.



  8. #38
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by dmthornt View Post
    Tre4ISU,

    Good points, but I question a few things. At my sons high school, they have a limited number of plays, yet every play has several, maybe up to 6, different things that can occur, including run v pass. The difference is every play has several reads that need to be made, virtually each player need to make a read and do something based on that read. The lineman (especially if he's pulling need to block differently based on the defenses position and movement. The receivers run a multitude of routes based on there reads and the QB needs to adjust his play based on his reads and he may have 5 different receivers that he has to make the same reads for as the receivers make. That's a lot for high school kids to do, but they do it and usually very well. I see Jantz and I see a guy that collapses under pressure, focuses on doing just one thing. And 9 out of 10 times throws an errant pass. Barnett while better doesn't have the physical ability that Jantz has, so that's a problem too. But overall, I'd say our biggest problem is Jantz not being able to pick up the reads and check-off plays. Just my humble opinion and it's probably wrong. :o)
    Jantzs' first INT was a perfect example. I think UT brought five but it could have been 6. There was no one in the short middle and Young was running a route there except I think it was an in and took to long. Jantz is backpedaling (a whole other problem) and overthrows with a wide open receiver. That's a lot on Jantz, a lot on Mess, a little on the line and a little on Young. I don't know maybe Young was supposed to do something different but I don't see a lot of flexibility in the offense. It's like "Here's what we're doing, let's see if it works" instead of "Hey, they are going to crush Jantz lets get someone where they were ASAP."

    Quote Originally Posted by MIClone View Post
    I like the post, especially the point about sticking with something that is working. Texas has had a horrible run defense all year and an average pass defense. We're running the ball with ease on 3 or 4 drives and what do we do...we switch to the incomplete pass play and the drive stalls. It was the most maddening aspect of ISU football I have experienced since Mac was coaching and he was ******* away a lead by trying to run the clock out.

    The other point that I liked is the fact that we don't change the play at the last minute to exploit what the defense is lined up to do.

    My only problem is that I think you are giving out QBs and WRs a little too much credit. The OL has been more solid than they have.
    Our QBs haven't been good but outside of drops (which is huge, I get that) they have gotten open. They do need to catch the ball, however. I have thought the offensive line has been okay. They haven't been great by any means but just okay. Like I said, it's pretty tough to block 5 with five and 6 with 5 is impossible. I actually have no problem with the coaches checking like we used to do. None. OU does it a lot. They read our alignment and went from there.


    It's all snark from here on out

  9. #39
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    In support of the OP:
    1. I have thought for a few weeks now that when the defense guessed wrong on run vs pass, our o-line has done a good job and the play usually works. When the defense is looking run and we run, it doesn't work very well. When the defense is looking pass and we pass, it's a complete omnishambles.

    2. I do not understand our overall offensive strategy. We are not a ground-and-pound offense. We are not an air raid offense. We do not use the run to set up the pass, or vice-versa. We are supposed to be balanced, to keep the defense off balance. However, I don't see where we ever do anything to confuse the defense and actually put them off balance. Our play calling is done by a random number generator, I think.


    If I were the OC, I would shift to 60/40 run/pass ratio. I think we've been decent running (or at least less mistake-prone), and it would make the pass game more efficient (I think) because it would give Steele more time on more plays as the defense is looking run more often. More running would also shorten the game for our almost stellar defense and make games more winnable. Especially against KU and WVU. I could be wrong, but that is what I'd try.



  10. #40
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by CascadeClone View Post
    In support of the OP:
    1. I have thought for a few weeks now that when the defense guessed wrong on run vs pass, our o-line has done a good job and the play usually works. When the defense is looking run and we run, it doesn't work very well. When the defense is looking pass and we pass, it's a complete omnishambles.

    2. I do not understand our overall offensive strategy. We are not a ground-and-pound offense. We are not an air raid offense. We do not use the run to set up the pass, or vice-versa. We are supposed to be balanced, to keep the defense off balance. However, I don't see where we ever do anything to confuse the defense and actually put them off balance. Our play calling is done by a random number generator, I think.


    If I were the OC, I would shift to 60/40 run/pass ratio. I think we've been decent running (or at least less mistake-prone), and it would make the pass game more efficient (I think) because it would give Steele more time on more plays as the defense is looking run more often. More running would also shorten the game for our almost stellar defense and make games more winnable. Especially against KU and WVU. I could be wrong, but that is what I'd try.
    See, I don't even think that's important. To me it's not about run/pass. It's about using what works, whether that be actually running the same play or showing the same look. It's like if we show a certain look/movement, we immediately have to go to something else. For defensive players knowing what to do and reacting are not one in the same. If, for instance, JW rips off ten yards on an outside zone play, it's going to be very hard for them not to react to that motion on the next. Then you run option or you use their reaction. I don't care if we pass 80 percent of the time if it works.


    It's all snark from here on out

  11. #41
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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    The Offense definitely has a bunch of problems. If I were to rate them:

    1. The OL is horrible. They can't run block, they can't sustain their blocks.
    2. QB play is inconsistent at best.
    3. WRs can't catch and can't get open.
    4. Playcalling is bad for the most part.
    5. The RBs don't have good vision and miss holes. Woody has been MIA all year due to injury.
    6. At TE, Brun does well receiving, but misses a bunch of blocks and Hammer isn't fast enough to be a threat out wide.

    Honestly, they need a complete overhaul.



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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    that was beautiful


    I AM SO FOOTBALL TO BE YOUR PROUD COACH

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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    You know what's nice? When Bob Graham was in on Saturday and we had two true guards in him and Tuftee pushing around Texas defenders.

    Our offensive line simply does not get enough push to make the run game work consistently. That forces Mess to rely on the pass because they protect better (most of the time) and we fail to have a quarterback to deliver consistently.

    I completely agree that the team needs to forge an identity rather than throwing 30 concepts at the wall and waiting to see what sticks. If you can't run the ball and want to be a running team then coaching needs to re-evaluate who is getting the snaps on offense and I think you began to see that against Texas on Saturday.



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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by d4nim4l View Post
    You know what's nice? When Bob Graham was in on Saturday and we had two true guards in him and Tuftee pushing around Texas defenders.

    Our offensive line simply does not get enough push to make the run game work consistently. That forces Mess to rely on the pass because they protect better (most of the time) and we fail to have a quarterback to deliver consistently.

    I completely agree that the team needs to forge an identity rather than throwing 30 concepts at the wall and waiting to see what sticks. If you can't run the ball and want to be a running team then coaching needs to re-evaluate who is getting the snaps on offense and I think you began to see that against Texas on Saturday.
    I've wondered all season if a lot of the problem wasn't the size of the offensive lineman we had. Osemele and Hicks were bigger guys. I know that Rhoads has talked about building a strong, fast line. It just seems like the line needs a balance of big guys and little guys that we don't have this year.



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    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    If you as and OC have a play works you should continue to run plays similar to that until it no longer works. You just found a hole in the defense and should continue to exploit it until the other teams defense adjust leaving another hole in the defense open. Once they adjust find another play type that works, run it for a while, and then go back to the original play and see if they maintained the original adjustment. Continue to run plays types until they don't work, then switch.

    I can't remember the game (maybe OSU last year or NU 2 years ago) we ran Woody up the middle. He was getting 5-8 yards per carry. At least 90% of the plays were Woody up the middle. The opposing teams defense couldn't handle it. We drove down the field on basically one type of play, Woody up the middle. The play calls may have been different, but they were the same type of play.

    If Mess would have been controlling the offense at that point we would have thrown in 3 pass plays after Woody had 3 successful runs for no to little gain and stopped the drive.

    I miss Herman.



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