Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 48
  1. #1
    Speechless
    Points: 356,520, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 9.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialYour first GroupRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Tre4ISU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Estherville
    Posts
    18,992
    Points
    356,520
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 359
    Given: 47

    The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Alright so in watching the UT game I had a theory. Rather than just run with it or decide it was right I took a look at every other conference game outside of Baylor because the offense did work to a point. I would note that that offensive performance wasn't all that great relative to the rest of the conference vs. Baylor. So then, there are a few things that I believe are going on and I think there are some misconceptions as to what is going on. Let's take a gander.

    The Scheme: I believe the scheme in itself is fine. I think the plays are fine. I think there is a design to our passing plays that will work and I don't think it's a lack of innovation is our play design. I don't believe for a minute our playbook can't work.

    The Talent:
    We have enough talent to be a decent offensive football team. We don't have the talent to be elite, but we have enough to win every game we have played IMO. I think our receivers are getting enough separation and I think our RBs certainly have enough pure talent to be productive. In fact, the RBs have been productive. Jared is a productive runner and Steele has been productive in both phases of the offense, at times. Yes, both have flaws but I don't know that they can help but show them because of other things we will look at in a bit.

    Ok, you say, so what's the problem? I noted I thought play design was fine. I think running the spread is fine and I think we have the right plays and the talent is adequate. The problem lies in the playcalling and somewhat in the Oline.

    When you watch a successful spread offense who is designed to be balanced and, yes, that part is important, you see things different than what you see from us. I think ISU's offense looks like they want to be a Graham Harrell lead TTU and a Freshman SLayton/White WVU. Man, if you could do that, it would be awesome. You can't without absolutely elite talent. I will freely admit that watching Denard RObinson go from Heisman if he had a defense to a guy that doesn't have a chance in a year has given me a jump on what spread football is about. Chris Brown of Smart Football has helped and Brian Cook at mgblog has helped.

    The whole key to ISU being able to win offensively is constraint. It has to be. We can't just line up and beat people. Numerous teams have done this before at least to the point where they are competitive, win games, recruits follow, things get easier. Let's start with the basics:

    The zone read is a base play in many spread running attacks. The whole idea of the play is to even out numbers or give you an advantage. Let's say they the defense is putting just six in the box against a 2-2. They have an advantage of 6-5. That's likely not going to be something you can just run into. So then, the RO was developed to simply make one guy always wrong, therefor evening your numbers out. This obviously all changes by formation. The play was genius and it worked for awhile. At some point, defenses then said, "Hey, let's make that DE effective." They then started crashing the DE and rolling a LB/S over to contain therefor making the play much harder to run because you weren't always reading the DE AND that DE also being effective playside.

    Once that happened the solution is pretty simple. There's a vacated spot that you can make simple easy throws to unless they are rolling a LBer over to cover it and if they want to do that, he is taken out of any playside run or you have one deep safety.

    So, that's the basics of how the RO has worked and been adapted to by defense. Any way you cut it, the offense should be able to manipulate it. So, why can't we?

    You have plays that are basic. They are your bread an butter. There are things that always beat cover two. There are things that beat man. Every playbook has these plays in it. The RO is one of those. It always beat's straight-up play your lane defense. No one runs that against a team that uses RO though. So for ISU, what's wrong?

    It's pretty simple from what I've seen. We don't make people play for "cheating" as I call it. If you line up with 2 receivers on each side and there isn't a LB/S over one of the slots, that's a quick pass and 5 yards every damn time. We never get that. Why? Every other RO team gets that. Because we don't make you do it. We don't make teams cheat and if you don't make them cheat you can't make them pay. We run the ball well enough. You can look at YPC and see it's good enough. The issue is that we do it so seldom. We run the ball and then pass. It's like Messingham is just trying to be too many things. Run the ball until they stop you. If you are having success and then all of sudden you aren't, they probably changed something. My bet is they don't have another guy on the field so they are giving up something. Instead, teams just line and give you a couple good runs but give us nothing easy in the pass game because they know that on first down, at some point, we will pass, they will defend it and then we are in a hole and even if we do have a 5 yard run, it's 3rd and 5 and we have to pass.

    You always hear that offenses don't want to be predictable. I don't necessarily agree. Be predictable and then use it against them. If you watch Oregon they will tell you where they are running. It's usually inside or outside zone. You want to flow hard playside? Fine, the Olinemen will let you and seal the cutback lane. That's constraint. Sure, it doesn't have to with numbers but it's using a defense against itself. They do it all the time. It's not hard but it does take an Oline being on the same page and the running back seeing that develop. There is none of that in our offense. Yes, SHontrelle makes some plays but that's because he had no choice but to try. That's in coaching. That's Bleil, Pope, Mess and Sturdy finding those opportunities. We have none of this. I won't go into other running play designs. You can do things with the veer and belly but those work off the RO too.

    Package plays: very useful. Oklahoma State, I think is a team that opens up the run by pass. They don't do a ton of option stuff but they will make reads, usually on LBers that tell them to run/pass. An uncovered slot guy should be a quick throw every time.

    Jet action: Please can we use this? Like, a lot? That holds the backside backer at least. That's one less guy. I like one less guy. If that backside guy thinks we are bluffing and he wants to flow to hard, hit him.

    With rotating LBers doing the cheating thing, the passing game should be easy. Quick hitches, slants, PA RB flares, all those things should just be gravy.

    In the end we struggle because first of all, we don't do one thing well time after time and push it until they stop it. My theory kind of ends here because I haven't been able to see if we can take advantage of that because we haven't had a choice. We don't have Denard Robinson. Denard is only the difference between a 5 yard gain and a touchdown though. Play calling was getting most of his in 2010, he just made mistakes more costly. If you look at the stats from that year, he was also a pretty prolific passer. He isn't now. Why? because they haven't used the same constraint theory. If Denard took a step toward the line of scrimmage he would give safeties heart attacks. As soon as they bit, he would throw it over them. We don't have that type of talent but it's the same thinking. Use what you have and make the defense adapt. When they adapt, attack whatever they gave up and just keep doing that.

    It's not about not be predictable. It's about using your predictability against them. That makes zero sense but it makes all the sense.

    Sorry for the organization. I got interrupted a few times and had a hard time staying on track.


    I'm on Twitter too: Tre4ISU

    Or so I have read.

  2. #2
    Addict
    Points: 117,474, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    bellzisu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Norwalk
    Posts
    6,394
    Points
    117,474
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 27
    Given: 24

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Too long to read....

    Come down to this... We have no blocking. Teams know this. We are getting blitzed more according to CPR then normal and we can't convert.

    Bad blocking
    Dropped passes
    Not making the right reads.


    GDMCC Member follow us on twitter @dmcyclub

  3. #3
    Addict
    Points: 117,474, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    bellzisu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Norwalk
    Posts
    6,394
    Points
    117,474
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 27
    Given: 24

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Plus.. Jet offense....

    We need to get into a rythm to use it. If not we are just going 3 and out faster and relying on a very dead and tired defense.


    GDMCC Member follow us on twitter @dmcyclub

  4. #4
    Pro
    Points: 47,325, Level: 67
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 1,025
    Overall activity: 27.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    3,323
    Points
    47,325
    Level
    67
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 272
    Given: 1,059

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    I think I agree with OP for the most part but quit reading after he said play calling and OL to some degree cause that's where I have been placing the blame for the most part. I appreciate your effort though.



  5. #5
    Pro
    Points: 33,307, Level: 56
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 943
    Overall activity: 40.0%
    Achievements:
    Created Album picturesVeteran25000 Experience Points
    ThatllDoCy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,434
    Points
    33,307
    Level
    56
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 214
    Given: 304

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Good write up, and I agree. Our play calling is predictable trying to be unpredictable.


    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.”
    Alan Wilson Watts

  6. #6
    Speechless
    Points: 356,520, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 9.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialYour first GroupRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Tre4ISU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Estherville
    Posts
    18,992
    Points
    356,520
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 359
    Given: 47

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by carvers4math View Post
    I think I agree with OP for the most part but quit reading after he said play calling and OL to some degree cause that's where I have been placing the blame for the most part. I appreciate your effort though.
    Well, I threw pretty much all blame in the play calling and you can't block 6 with 5. That's one thing about football that will never change.


    I'm on Twitter too: Tre4ISU

    Or so I have read.

  7. #7
    Hall-Of-Famer
    Points: 46,224, Level: 66
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 726
    Overall activity: 27.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    3,619
    Points
    46,224
    Level
    66
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 345
    Given: 168

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Only thing I disagree with to some extent is to do something until it stops working. I think that's a novel concept, but essentially a team needs to be true to their identity. I think (I'm not sure because we have been so inconsistent) we are supposed to be a 50-50 run-pass team. That means even if the run is working, we can't completely abandon the pass. I think a lot of people on this board don't want to see any passes thrown at all when the run is working and I frankly disagree with that. You have to stay somewhat true to your identity. That's why pass heavy offenses don't start trying to run the ball even when they have the lead.



  8. #8
    Hall-Of-Famer
    Points: 46,224, Level: 66
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 726
    Overall activity: 27.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    3,619
    Points
    46,224
    Level
    66
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 345
    Given: 168

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatllDoCy View Post
    Good write up, and I agree. Our play calling is predictable trying to be unpredictable.
    I'm pretty sure OP said that the play calling should be somewhat predictable. It's just that it's predictability needs to be justified and efficient.



  9. #9
    Speechless
    Points: 356,520, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 9.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialYour first GroupRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Tre4ISU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Estherville
    Posts
    18,992
    Points
    356,520
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 359
    Given: 47

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luth4Cy View Post
    Only thing I disagree with to some extent is to do something until it stops working. I think that's a novel concept, but essentially a team needs to be true to their identity. I think (I'm not sure because we have been so inconsistent) we are supposed to be a 50-50 run-pass team. That means even if the run is working, we can't completely abandon the pass. I think a lot of people on this board don't want to see any passes thrown at all when the run is working and I frankly disagree with that. You have to stay somewhat true to your identity. That's why pass heavy offenses don't start trying to run the ball even when they have the lead.
    While I agree we can't be 50/50 and successful the way we are doing it. Without a large talent advantage, you have to use the defense against themselves and make them adjust to things by doing things they want to do. Every defense in the world would love to drop two safeties and leave three linebackers playing straight up. You have to make teams not do that. We don't. The only thing teams do against us is blitz to death because we have nothing for it. Nothing. Part of that's Steele, parts of that's Mess. After looking, the Oline isn't great, but it isn't the limiting factor for the most part.


    I'm on Twitter too: Tre4ISU

    Or so I have read.

  10. #10
    Addict
    Points: 116,684, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 25.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience PointsSocial
    Cycsk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    9,304
    Points
    116,684
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 388
    Given: 312

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Summary: We should be predictable and rely on our run plays until they stop it. Our yards-per-play are enough to rely solely on it. If they make changes to stop the run, we should spot it and take advantage of their adjustment.

    Right now, we pass so much that the defenses know we want to go to it, so they never make adjustments to stop our runs. We will call pass plays and go away from the effective run on our own.



  11. #11
    Pro
    Points: 33,307, Level: 56
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 943
    Overall activity: 40.0%
    Achievements:
    Created Album picturesVeteran25000 Experience Points
    ThatllDoCy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,434
    Points
    33,307
    Level
    56
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 214
    Given: 304

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luth4Cy View Post
    I'm pretty sure OP said that the play calling should be somewhat predictable. It's just that it's predictability needs to be justified and efficient.
    This is why I agreed. We need to be more unpredictable by making better reads and utilizing the base offense better. It should provide opportunities. A predictable play call, but unpredictable in execution. Running twice then throwing is not fooling anyone. The QB rarely keeps and we never throw out of the zone read diminishing the effectiveness IMO.


    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.”
    Alan Wilson Watts

  12. #12
    Speechless
    Points: 270,078, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 20.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    isuno1fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Clive, Iowa
    Posts
    17,495
    Points
    270,078
    Level
    100
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 119
    Given: 28

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    I forwarded to CPR and Mess. Can't wait to see the improvement this weekend against KU!!



  13. #13
    All-Star
    Points: 24,201, Level: 47
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 4.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    mcblogerson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,545
    Points
    24,201
    Level
    47
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 78
    Given: 28

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    I think we should be more of a power rushing offense than a finesse speed offense. Easier to recruit and will work better in a conference full of spread defenses. More pistol, more motion and less read option.


    "You have great authority in your quotes, if you ascribe them to someone else."

    -Some Guy

  14. #14
    All-Star
    Points: 14,815, Level: 36
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 35
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    JJ4ISU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    WDM Side of Waukee
    Posts
    1,202
    Points
    14,815
    Level
    36
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 0
    Given: 0

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    I'm not sure Steele Jantz knows how to read a defense. Against Texas, I could tell when they were bringing extra guys and he didn't seem to notice or do much about it. Seems to me he needs to communicate to his linemen who has who. Also, he needs to be able to hit a "hot" receiver, and I don't see that happening when other teams blitz.



  15. #15
    Hall-Of-Famer
    Points: 62,643, Level: 77
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 607
    Overall activity: 1.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran50000 Experience Points
    Ficklone02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    City by the Bay
    Posts
    3,908
    Points
    62,643
    Level
    77
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 3
    Given: 11

    Re: The Offense: Why is doesn't work (IMO, but I'm right)

    Well I haven't gone back & watched tape, but that surprises me to hear that our run game is good enough on its own. I remember alot of 1st down read option running plays that go for essentially nothing.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • TV: FOX
  • Iowa State vs. Baylor
  • September 27, 2014
  • 07:20 PM