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    A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Giuliani falsely claims that only 44 percent of prostate cancer patients survive under "socialized medicine" in England.

    FactCheck.org: A Bogus Cancer Statistic



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Whether it is true or not, the fact remains that socialized medicine, just like socialized anything, is more expensive and less efficient. Too bad they decided to sensationalize it, because the truth is just as revealing.



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    Whether it is true or not, the fact remains that socialized medicine, just like socialized anything, is more expensive and less efficient. Too bad they decided to sensationalize it, because the truth is just as revealing.
    We've had a similar discussion before, but what is your basis for this claim?



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine68 View Post
    Giuliani falsely claims that only 44 percent of prostate cancer patients survive under "socialized medicine" in England.

    FactCheck.org: A Bogus Cancer Statistic
    An article (opinion) in Salon on Giuliani and the government-provided plan that made it possible for him to survive his prostate cancer.

    Link: http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason...althcare_lies/



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by iceclone View Post
    We've had a similar discussion before, but what is your basis for this claim?
    The simiple fact that socialized medicine is run by the government supports the assertion that its inefficient.

    I recently saw a couple news stories relating to socialized medicine. I believe in the UK many patients now extract their own teeth and in Canada pregnant mothers are often flown into the US before delivery because the Canadian hospitals are full. Socialized medicine is not the panacea many believe it to be.


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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by iceclone View Post
    We've had a similar discussion before, but what is your basis for this claim?
    It's simply human nature, combined with the laws of supply and demand. Human nature dictates that anything free will be used carelessly and often times needlessly. So we artificially increase demand, thus lowering the supply available. Combine all that with the fact that the government wastes endless amounts of money through it's inefficiency and bureaucracy, and it's a lose-lose scenario. You also have free market forces at work now that drive research. I find it unfathomable that anyone could look at the hulking juggernaut of waste that our government is, and still want to hand them over more responsibility.



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    I also forgot to add........fiscally irresponsible. Our liabilities to social security, medicare and the national debt already exceed our ability to pay. Our printing of money has driven the value of the dollar lower and lower. We need to work on solutions to these problems before we commit ourselves to anything else. Even without socialized health care, it would not surprise me if the whole house of cards comes crashing down upon us if we don't find a fix in the next few years.



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I also forgot to add........fiscally irresponsible. Our liabilities to social security, medicare and the national debt already exceed our ability to pay. Our printing of money has driven the value of the dollar lower and lower. We need to work on solutions to these problems before we commit ourselves to anything else. Even without socialized health care, it would not surprise me if the whole house of cards comes crashing down upon us if we don't find a fix in the next few years.
    Good thing this president didn't slash taxes for the rich and then spend $1T outside the budget on a foolish war.



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Incyte View Post
    I recently saw a couple news stories relating to socialized medicine. I believe in the UK many patients now extract their own teeth and in Canada pregnant mothers are often flown into the US before delivery because the Canadian hospitals are full. Socialized medicine is not the panacea many believe it to be.
    Do you honestly think that there aren't people in this country who can't go to the hospital to give birth or go to the dentist?

    And one instance of something happening does not mean it happens to "many".



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by bawbie View Post
    Good thing this president didn't slash taxes for the rich and then spend $1T outside the budget on a foolish war.
    Could you provide a reference for this huge tax cut for the rich? I don't seem to remember one. Not to say it didn't happen, but if so, it's that much more proof of a need for the Fair Tax I am babbling on about in the other thread.

    Oh, and for clarification, are you implying that we should socialize medicine because we already waste money left and right for everything else? Just curious.



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by bawbie View Post
    Do you honestly think that there aren't people in this country who can't go to the hospital to give birth or go to the dentist?

    And one instance of something happening does not mean it happens to "many".
    Haha.......too bad you guys won't allow that argument for everything else. It seems like one person offended by something is too many.



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    Could you provide a reference for this huge tax cut for the rich? I don't seem to remember one. Not to say it didn't happen, but if so, it's that much more proof of a need for the Fair Tax I am babbling on about in the other thread.

    Oh, and for clarification, are you implying that we should socialize medicine because we already waste money left and right for everything else? Just curious.
    Really? You don't remember the tax cuts in 2001?

    For clarification, I was responding to your statement that:
    Our printing of money has driven the value of the dollar lower and lower. We need to work on solutions to these problems before we commit ourselves to anything else.


    After the Clinton administration we were on a way to having solutions to "these problems", but Bush flushed it all down the toilet.



    Last edited by bawbie; 11-13-2007 at 08:45 AM.

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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Incyte View Post
    The simiple fact that socialized medicine is run by the government supports the assertion that its inefficient.

    I recently saw a couple news stories relating to socialized medicine. I believe in the UK many patients now extract their own teeth and in Canada pregnant mothers are often flown into the US before delivery because the Canadian hospitals are full. Socialized medicine is not the panacea many believe it to be.
    We get quite a few of those teeth extracting stories over here too. Usually, it has more to do with the person doing the extraction than the particular healthcare system (US, UK, or Canada).

    The second story was linked here by Cyclonepride some time ago, and I think it provides significant insights:

    FOXNews.com - Canada's Expectant Moms Heading to U.S. to Deliver - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

    The Fox News headline, and your recollection of the story, is a little bit misleading because it involved a small number of mothers/kids requiring neonatal intensive care. However, I do think the actual story is a really good illustration of a key weakness in socialized healthcare versus private healthcare.

    The winners in any privatized healthcare are those that require very profitable medicine. This includes some frivolous things, like much of plastic surgery, but also absolutely necessary things like neonatal intensive care. The market-driven healthcare system makes sure that there is plenty of capacity for any such service, whereas a socialized healthcare system may be very slow to respond to increased demand for such services.

    A socialized healthcare system is indeed no panacea, and I think it’s most serious inherent weakness would be slow response to increased demand.

    Personally, I favor a dual system similar to what they have in the UK. Everyone can use the NHS, but nobody must use the NHS. The NHS and the privatized medical services provide largely complimentary roles.



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    It's simply human nature, combined with the laws of supply and demand. Human nature dictates that anything free will be used carelessly and often times needlessly. So we artificially increase demand, thus lowering the supply available.
    I agree with your basic thought here, so any system (privatized or socialized) must have co-payment so that there is no "free" service. Other countries have experiences with this, and have found that a small co-pay dramatically reduces the demand for unnecessary services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    Combine all that with the fact that the government wastes endless amounts of money through it's inefficiency and bureaucracy, and it's a lose-lose scenario.
    It is hard to believe that any system can be more bureaucratic than the one we already have with insurance companies and pharmacy payers. I don't think the empirical evidence (comparing US versus other systems) supports your concern. However, I do worry about excessive bureaucracy, and partially to address that concern, I would be in favor of state-run systems rather than a huge national system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    You also have free market forces at work now that drive research.
    Check out the NIH budget. Basic research is driven by government to at least the extent it is driven by industry. And if privately-driven research can't thrive alongside a socialized healthcare system, how to you explain Hoffmann–La Roche and other Swiss pharmaceutical giants?



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    Re: A Bogus Cancer Statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by iceclone View Post
    It is hard to believe that any system can be more bureaucratic than the one we already have with insurance companies and pharmacy payers. I don't think the empirical evidence (comparing US versus other systems) supports your concern. However, I do worry about excessive bureaucracy, and partially to address that concern, I would be in favor of state-run systems rather than a huge national system.
    State run systems would be an improvement over a federal system. However, in a private run corporation, making wasteful decisions cost you your job. Not always so in a government position. The larger the institution, the more money that is lost to waste. And our government is one of the largest institutions around.



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