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    UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    ESPN - North Dakota, NCAA settle Fighting Sioux lawsuit - College Sports

    Looks like the little guys pushed back and won a small victory...


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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Unfortunately, I wish it wasn't UND fighting the battle. They have a huge booster that gave them like 100 million dollars a few years ago and plastered the indian all over everything so it would cost a ton of money to replace and he was a noted racist. SI did a huge story on it at the time.



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Reminds me of the Fighting Whites.
    Fighting Whites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    What was their School Fight Song,...... the Theme from "Happy Days"



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Quote Originally Posted by BryceC View Post
    Unfortunately, I wish it wasn't UND fighting the battle. They have a huge booster that gave them like 100 million dollars a few years ago and plastered the indian all over everything so it would cost a ton of money to replace and he was a noted racist. SI did a huge story on it at the time.
    And he threatened to pull all his money if they ever dropped the "Fighting Sioux" nickname



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Quote Originally Posted by jbhtexas View Post
    ESPN - North Dakota, NCAA settle Fighting Sioux lawsuit - College Sports

    Looks like the little guys pushed back and won a small victory...
    Why do people want to have a nickname after an ethnicity or culture of people that are offended by its use. It is like UND is telling the Sioux..."we think you should like us using your image, name, and culture so you have to like it." It seems really ignorant. What if a team was the New York Pig Farmers or Dirtheads or the L.A. Iowa Fat People. I doubt people would be too happy. Worst of all is that stupid Cleveland Indian logo...anyone that doesn't see the racism in that is blind. I am not native american but that thing even offends me.



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    In most cases, it doesn't offend a minority, it offends white upper class people who think they can tell the rest of us how to act. And rich white people suing someone on behalf of those "poor, beknighted (insert buzz-word here) is what is truly racist.

    And where, precisely, in a free country, are you entitled to NOT be offended?

    The NCAA is also after the Seminoles, who are actually officially SANCTIONED by the Seminole tribe. But white, guilt-ridden reverse racists who happen to be/have lawyers are not deterred by this, in their quest to cram their dogma down our throats.


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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Quote Originally Posted by herbiedoobie View Post
    In most cases, it doesn't offend a minority, it offends white upper class people who think they can tell the rest of us how to act. And rich white people suing someone on behalf of those "poor, beknighted (insert buzz-word here) is what is truly racist.

    And where, precisely, in a free country, are you entitled to NOT be offended?

    The NCAA is also after the Seminoles, who are actually officially SANCTIONED by the Seminole tribe. But white, guilt-ridden reverse racists who happen to be/have lawyers are not deterred by this, in their quest to cram their dogma down our throats.
    Thought crime



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Quote Originally Posted by herbiedoobie View Post
    In most cases, it doesn't offend a minority, it offends white upper class people who think they can tell the rest of us how to act. And rich white people suing someone on behalf of those "poor, beknighted (insert buzz-word here) is what is truly racist.

    And where, precisely, in a free country, are you entitled to NOT be offended?

    The NCAA is also after the Seminoles, who are actually officially SANCTIONED by the Seminole tribe. But white, guilt-ridden reverse racists who happen to be/have lawyers are not deterred by this, in their quest to cram their dogma down our throats.
    I am okay with the seminoles because they have okayed it with the tribe and if the people it might offend are okay with it I don't care what other overly sensitives think. UND has not and until the sioux okay it I think it is pretty lame to assume it is okay. Why would it be wrong to further humiliate a group of people white america has done nothing but wrong too for 400 years...hmmm. Anyway, I stand by the cleveland indian logo as the most rascist logo in sports...it includes about every steriotype you can make except maybe a bottle of booze.



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    The Cleveland Indians is the most rascist nickname in sports? How is it any different than the Atlanta Braves or Washington Redskins?

    Interestingly a majority of Native Americans are not offended by either the Fighting Sioux nickname or logo.



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Quote Originally Posted by everyyard View Post
    Why do people want to have a nickname after an ethnicity or culture of people that are offended by its use. It is like UND is telling the Sioux..."we think you should like us using your image, name, and culture so you have to like it." It seems really ignorant. What if a team was the New York Pig Farmers or Dirtheads or the L.A. Iowa Fat People. I doubt people would be too happy. Worst of all is that stupid Cleveland Indian logo...anyone that doesn't see the racism in that is blind. I am not native american but that thing even offends me.
    Why do you assume the Sioux are offended? I haven't done any research to try to figure out the general attitude of the locals, but I do have family up that direction (NDSU fans, though), and one of times I was up there this issue was in the local news. I have no idea how representitive the sampling was, but all of the native Americans interviewed on the local news either did not care or were proud of the "Fighting Sioux" name. I would be interested in seeing evidence to the contrary.



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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Quote Originally Posted by everyyard View Post
    I am okay with the seminoles because they have okayed it with the tribe and if the people it might offend are okay with it I don't care what other overly sensitives think. UND has not and until the sioux okay it I think it is pretty lame to assume it is okay. Why would it be wrong to further humiliate a group of people white america has done nothing but wrong too for 400 years...hmmm. Anyway, I stand by the cleveland indian logo as the most rascist logo in sports...it includes about every steriotype you can make except maybe a bottle of booze.
    Yep, proof positive that the myth of the "noble savage" has been effectively fed through the school system like sewage through a 36" pipe.

    The conflict between "whites" and "natives" was not completely the "whites" stealing the "natives'" land. More like "one set of immigrants displacing another set of immigrants in a classic clash of cultures" kind of thing.

    Absorbing a conquered societies' totems and symbols and using them is as old as man's time on earth, itself. A wise society would recognize this and honor it. OBTW, the conquered culture doesn't get a say as to how their symbols are used.


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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Quote Originally Posted by everyyard View Post
    Why do people want to have a nickname after an ethnicity or culture of people that are offended by its use. It is like UND is telling the Sioux..."we think you should like us using your image, name, and culture so you have to like it." It seems really ignorant. What if a team was the New York Pig Farmers or Dirtheads or the L.A. Iowa Fat People. I doubt people would be too happy. Worst of all is that stupid Cleveland Indian logo...anyone that doesn't see the racism in that is blind. I am not native american but that thing even offends me.
    The reason is most ethnicities weren't upset about it until uber-left wing America told those ethnicities that they should be upset about it.

    As if the Notre Dame Fighting Irish isn't as "offensive" a nickname as a lot of the Native American name and mascot. Why should Notre Dame be allowed to display an image of a half crazed leprechaun ready to get himself into a drunken brawl? As an Irish-American that is "offensive" to me. Should I make myself a pain in the *** until Notre Dame realizes just how offensive their name and mascot is and changes it?


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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    I happened across this discussion board when doing a Google search to see what kind of press this issue made nationally and found this thread to be interesting.

    Allow me to fill you in on the UND issue and maybe answer some of your questions.

    I was raised in Grand Forks, ND, but now live in Illinois. I was educated there and attended UND for two years before realizing I needed to go to school elsewhere to finish my schooling (too much partying at "home"). I do return "home" to attend at least one hockey series a year.

    The fight over the nickname and logo has been an "issue" for over 30 years, but it's been very much a political battle by a few individuals and not neccessarily the feelings of the entire tribe(s). Most of the Native American individuals I knew during my 16 years of living there say they saw UND as being respectful and thought the exposure was an honor to the tribe, it's name and history. Definitely not "hostile and abusive" like the NCAA charged.

    They have always had approval from the Spirit Lake (Lakota) tribe, including a letter of approval from Sitting Bull's grandson. This is the tribe nearest UND (Ft. Totten is the headquarters, near Devil's Lake). The Standing Rock tribe (by the ND/SD border south of Bismarck), has always been the vocal opposition. Ironcally, the people most responsible for the latest attack on the name/logo were Native Americans from another state (SD) and were not even of Sioux heritage (Cherokee, I think).

    Also, this is not the first time the logo has undergone an assault. The original Indian-head logo was the same as the one worn by the Chicago BlackHawks (which for some reason are rarely targeted like the Redskins, Indians and Braves). In the late 70's, that logo was discontinued and was replaced for one year by the University seal, then by an abstract Indian-head design similar to Indian head pennies before its current logo (which was designed by a Native American artist) was adopted.

    Some facts:
    1) UND does not have a mascot. There is no Chief Illiniwek or Florida State type who dresses in a headdress, riding a horse and being disrespectful. There was a similar mascot many years ago, but it was termed offensive and banned from events in the early 1970s. And, it was not an official university mascot, but was rather designed and run by a campus group.

    2) UND fans do not do tomahawk chops or yell war chants.

    3) Hockey is the only sport which publicizes the logo. A small (2-inch square) logo is on the crest of their FB jerseys, but the helmets are adorned with a block ND.

    4) The nickname Fighting Sioux was designed partly after Notre Dame. The UND was a common abbreviation and it adopted the Fighting portion from them. The Sioux portion was adopted because North Dakota is the home of the Sioux Nation and they killed Bison (which is the mascot of the other state school -- NDSU).

    5) UND has over 400 Native American students (roughly 3% of its 13,000 enrollment) and has 29 degree programs designed for Native Americans or people wanting to study that field. While UND does not fund these entirely itself, it has procured many federal and state grants to ensure these programs exsist -- something many bigger universities do not offer. And, many Native Americans are able to attend UND at no cost because of these monies. A majority of Native Americans who are educated and return to the tribal lands are educated at UND -- this includes grads of its medical and law schools.

    6) UND's school song is not the theme from "Happy Days."

    The consensus about why the state settled with the NCAA was that, even though it looked favorable to win the case in court, speculation was that the NCAA would adopt new by-laws and make a new ruling against the name and logo -- with no recourse for appeal -- next year. At least this settlement allows the Sioux people to make the decision about its use, and not the NCAA. I think all true UND fans are comfortable with this and will accept a name change if the tribes feel it is truly a disgrace.

    There is no doubt The Ralph has much to do with the recent controversy, but it is -- without a doubt -- the premier hockey arena in the nation.

    I am a supporter of the nickname and logo because I know the university does not use it in a demeaning way like Florida State does -- it is comparing apples to oranges -- and because the school really does educate many Native Americans who would not otherwise be able to attend an institue of higher learning

    I hope this sheds some light on the subject for those of you who have not followed it until the settlement happened.


    Last edited by Sioux fan; 11-01-2007 at 04:17 AM.

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    Re: UND and NCAA settle lawsuit over "Fighting Sioux"

    Welcome to the board, and we hope to see you around more...

    I think this was a very informative piece, and may help settle some of the arguments. I do, however, have some extra points and some possible counterpoints to your argument -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sioux fan View Post
    They have always had approval from the Spirit Lake (Lakota) tribe, including a letter of approval from Sitting Bull's grandson. This is the tribe nearest UND (Ft. Totten is the headquarters, near Devil's Lake). The Standing Rock tribe (by the ND/SD border south of Bismarck), has always been the vocal opposition. Ironcally, the people most responsible for the latest attack on the name/logo were Native Americans from another state (SD) and were not even of Sioux heritage (Cherokee, I think).
    This is one of the points where I think the NCAA is most hypocritical - especially when it relates to Florida St. FSU has approval from the Seminole tribe of Florida to use the nickname (and I think the Seminole tribe has active participation with FSU's "rituals," I think including the mascot actually being a Seminole), while the Seminole tribe of Oklahoma (I think) finds the name and use offensive, yet the NCAA only considers the Seminoles of Florida's opinion relevant. Meanwhile, the Sioux tribe closest to the UND campus not only approves of the use but has designed certain aspects of UND's image but a Native American tribe from a different state that's not even of Sioux heritage can object to the use? This is completely egregious by the NCAA, and it boils down to the fact that FSU is a "big name recognition" school that they don't want to **** off by forcing them to change their mascot under similar conditions. Then again, us ISU fans have become all to familiar with hypocrisy out of the NCAA recently when it comes to the Lucca Staiger issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sioux fan View Post
    Also, this is not the first time the logo has undergone an assault. The original Indian-head logo was the same as the one worn by the Chicago BlackHawks (which for some reason are rarely targeted like the Redskins, Indians and Braves).
    I'm going to put a counter on this one - I think the reason why there hasn't been much opposition to the use of Chief Black Hawk as opposed to the use of the Redskins, Indians, and Braves, is because from the impression I get from the Chicago Blackhawks is it's honoring an American historical figure. I'm from Davenport, IA (about 2.5 hours from Chicago), and Chief Black Hawk has a dominant historical presence to this area. I think what goes further in the Blackhawk's claim to not being offensive is I've never seen any wacky Native American promotions or "rituals" by the team - it has more of the feel of honoring a prominent local/national historical figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sioux fan View Post
    Some facts:
    1) UND does not have a mascot. There is no Chief Illiniwek or Florida State type who dresses in a headdress, riding a horse and being disrespectful. There was a similar mascot many years ago, but it was termed offensive and banned from events in the early 1970s. And, it was not an official university mascot, but was rather designed and run by a campus group.

    2) UND fans do not do tomahawk chops or yell war chants.

    3) Hockey is the only sport which publicizes the logo. A small (2-inch square) logo is on the crest of their FB jerseys, but the helmets are adorned with a block ND.

    4) The nickname Fighting Sioux was designed partly after Notre Dame. The UND was a common abbreviation and it adopted the Fighting portion from them. The Sioux portion was adopted because North Dakota is the home of the Sioux Nation and they killed Bison (which is the mascot of the other state school -- NDSU).

    5) UND has over 400 Native American students (roughly 3% of its 13,000 enrollment) and has 29 degree programs designed for Native Americans or people wanting to study that field. While UND does not fund these entirely itself, it has procured many federal and state grants to ensure these programs exsist -- something many bigger universities do not offer. And, many Native Americans are able to attend UND at no cost because of these monies. A majority of Native Americans who are educated and return to the tribal lands are educated at UND -- this includes grads of its medical and law schools.

    6) UND's school song is not the theme from "Happy Days."
    All the more proof that the NCAA is a hypocritical organization. However, like I said earlier, I don't think it's necessarily to compare Florida St, as I believe their mascot is actually someone from the Florida Seminole tribe. However, as far as Chief Illiniwek, I have to admit that one's kind of out there. "Whitey" dressing up as a chief in Native American garb that isn't even from one of the Illinois/prairie tribes, such as the Peoria, Illini, etc. (in fact, I read somewhere that Chief Illiniwek's headdress was actually a Sioux headdress).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sioux fan View Post
    The consensus about why the state settled with the NCAA was that, even though it looked favorable to win the case in court, speculation was that the NCAA would adopt new by-laws and make a new ruling against the name and logo -- with no recourse for appeal -- next year. At least this settlement allows the Sioux people to make the decision about its use, and not the NCAA. I think all true UND fans are comfortable with this and will accept a name change if the tribes feel it is truly a disgrace.

    There is no doubt The Ralph has much to do with the recent controversy, but it is -- without a doubt -- the premier hockey arena in the nation.

    I am a supporter of the nickname and logo because I know the university does not use it in a demeaning way like Florida State does -- it is comparing apples to oranges -- and because the school really does educate many Native Americans who would not otherwise be able to attend an institue of higher learning

    I hope this sheds some light on the subject for those of you who have not followed it until the settlement happened.
    Like I said earlier, FSU's use of the Seminole isn't exactly demeaning as they have approval from the Seminole tribe to use the images. I think your argument here would have been to compare it to the U of Illinois, where they had NO approval from the prairie tribes of Illinois (as there no longer is an Illini tribe) to use the images that they were using. However, I am of the opinion that the NCAA should keep its hands off of issues like this anyway, especially when they can't do it without hypocrisy creeping in.


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