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    A quote that I believe in.

    This is a quote from Colin Powell that I read quite a while ago, and it really stuck with me. It says quite eloquently what I believe to be true about our country.


    There is nothing in American experience or in American political life or in our culture that suggests we want to use hard power. But what we have found over the decades is that unless you do have hard power — and here I think you're referring to military power — then sometimes you are faced with situations that you can't deal with.

    I mean, it was not soft power that freed Europe. It was hard power. And what followed immediately after hard power? Did the United States ask for dominion over a single nation in Europe? No. Soft power came in the Marshall Plan. Soft power came with American GIs who put their weapons down once the war was over and helped all those nations rebuild. We did the same thing in Japan.
    So our record of living our values and letting our values be an inspiration to others I think is clear. And I don't think I have anything to be ashamed of or apologize for with respect to what America has done for the world. [Applause.] We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in, and otherwise we have returned home to seek our own, you know, to seek our own lives in peace, to live our own lives in peace. But there comes a time when soft power or talking with evil will not work where, unfortunately, hard power is the only thing that works.

    I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from "the other side" of the aisle, as well as the conspiracy theorists.....you all know who you are.




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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    I agree with the quote, but... really disagree with the premise we were led to beleive for the war in Iraq. Afghanistan made sense at that time, you know, the war on terror, and all of a sudden it seemed like we made a sidetrack to Iraq, and completely abandoned Afghani soil. It still seems that way (to me) now.

    Just out of curiousity, when did he say that?


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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone62 View Post
    I agree with the quote, but... really disagree with the premise we were led to beleive for the war in Iraq. Afghanistan made sense at that time, you know, the war on terror, and all of a sudden it seemed like we made a sidetrack to Iraq, and completely abandoned Afghani soil. It still seems that way (to me) now.

    Just out of curiousity, when did he say that?
    January 6th, 2003. Iraq was something that I supported wholeheartedly in the beginning, because I believed (and still do) that it was the precursor to leaning on Iran, or removing that problem altogether. The way things have gone, I am no longer completely sure if it was the right course, but I'm fully supportive of finishing the mission, because I believe we have to. I'm a big Colin Powell fan. I read his a****iography, and would vote for him in a second if he would run from president. I was hoping he would in 2004. Unfortunately, I don't think he will.



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    When the Iraqi war first broke out, I was for it as well. However, I was only 17ish at the time, and had a safety blanket belief that "the government knows best." That's not always the case, and I feel we went into Iraq in the wrong way. However, due to my awesomeness, once I hit 18, I began to heart politics for some reason. I'll continually get into debates, and love doing so. Politics has made me whole. ::sigh::


    "Seven minutes to glory."

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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    January 6th, 2003. Iraq was something that I supported wholeheartedly in the beginning, because I believed (and still do) that it was the precursor to leaning on Iran, or removing that problem altogether. The way things have gone, I am no longer completely sure if it was the right course, but I'm fully supportive of finishing the mission, because I believe we have to. I'm a big Colin Powell fan. I read his a****iography, and would vote for him in a second if he would run from president. I was hoping he would in 2004. Unfortunately, I don't think he will.
    What's the mission?


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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    It's SUPPOSED to be reshaping the middle-east, and instigating democracy in the region and trying to lead them into the 21st Century, so that they cannot harm us in their frustration of "haves" and "have-nots".

    Not that I believe that crap, but that's the theory.

    What I think will really happen? The chasm between our societies are so great that we will end up annihilating them after a long, long period of start and stop warfare. (Note: This is NOT the solution I would advocate, I just don't see how it cannot happen anyway other than this.)

    See the 300+ war between the "last migration that inhabited the North American landmass" and the European-based settlers. No way is there a possibility of co-existence. Sooner or later, the "White Man" is forced to exterminate the "Indian", due to their incompatible cultures. That conflict would be interesting to model to see if there is a point where you could have a peaceful solution. I cannot imagine what that solution would look like.



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by herbiedoobie View Post
    It's SUPPOSED to be reshaping the middle-east, and instigating democracy in the region and trying to lead them into the 21st Century, so that they cannot harm us in their frustration of "haves" and "have-nots".

    Not that I believe that crap, but that's the theory.

    What I think will really happen? The chasm between our societies are so great that we will end up annihilating them after a long, long period of start and stop warfare. (Note: This is NOT the solution I would advocate, I just don't see how it cannot happen anyway other than this.)

    See the 300+ war between the "last migration that inhabited the North American landmass" and the European-based settlers. No way is there a possibility of co-existence. Sooner or later, the "White Man" is forced to exterminate the "Indian", due to their incompatible cultures. That conflict would be interesting to model to see if there is a point where you could have a peaceful solution. I cannot imagine what that solution would look like.
    I agree that the theory is crap. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the kind of culture that we are dealing with. They are not going to behave in ways acceptable to western society for a long time, if ever. But now we are stuck in the middle of it, and I'm not sure how we can withdraw anytime soon, as all the surrounding countries have their own agendas, and will interfere in any way they can. I guess "finishing the mission" means that we get them to a point where they can defend themselves, and find a Middle Eastern brand of stability, as a western brand of stability probably isn't possible.



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I agree that the theory is crap. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the kind of culture that we are dealing with. They are not going to behave in ways acceptable to western society for a long time, if ever. But now we are stuck in the middle of it, and I'm not sure how we can withdraw anytime soon, as all the surrounding countries have their own agendas, and will interfere in any way they can. I guess "finishing the mission" means that we get them to a point where they can defend themselves, and find a Middle Eastern brand of stability, as a western brand of stability probably isn't possible.
    Before I give my own views, I have to say it is very refreshing that we're discussion the real reason for going into Iraq. I find it very sad that our heroes are being put in harms way when 99% of the country seems to have no idea of why they are there. (I do blame the Bush administration for that. They seemed to have the attitude that the country couldn't handle/understand the truth and hence polled all sort of reasons until one finally stuck.)

    But I digress. Like herbiedoobie I never bought into the argument that we could transform the Middle East through nation building. It may sound good on paper that a democratic Iraq would encourage other nations to reject extremism and move towards democracy themselves. But in practice democracy is simply not something you can go into another country and "implement" through force. It is much more complex and has to be allowed to evolve naturally from the people.



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    This is a quote from Colin Powell that I read quite a while ago, and it really stuck with me. It says quite eloquently what I believe to be true about our country.


    There is nothing in American experience or in American political life or in our culture that suggests we want to use hard power. But what we have found over the decades is that unless you do have hard power — and here I think you're referring to military power — then sometimes you are faced with situations that you can't deal with.

    I mean, it was not soft power that freed Europe. It was hard power. And what followed immediately after hard power? Did the United States ask for dominion over a single nation in Europe? No. Soft power came in the Marshall Plan. Soft power came with American GIs who put their weapons down once the war was over and helped all those nations rebuild. We did the same thing in Japan.
    So our record of living our values and letting our values be an inspiration to others I think is clear. And I don't think I have anything to be ashamed of or apologize for with respect to what America has done for the world. [Applause.] We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in, and otherwise we have returned home to seek our own, you know, to seek our own lives in peace, to live our own lives in peace. But there comes a time when soft power or talking with evil will not work where, unfortunately, hard power is the only thing that works.

    I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from "the other side" of the aisle, as well as the conspiracy theorists.....you all know who you are.
    This reads very much like an elaboration of a much shorter quote from an even more famous general, which is on the new Ames Veterans Memorial:

    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace."

    - George Washington



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    I admire Colin Powell.

    Nevertheless, I prefer the following quote:

    "It doesn't matter what the threat is. International law trumps diplomacy. And, except under the most extreme circumstances, diplomacy trumps force. Force is the ultimate action, but improperly applied, force only kills people and breaks things. It gets you into something. It doesn't give you your success. [We need] the complete package."

    Wesley Clark



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Ouch. I didn't know that anyone actually would like that Weaselly Clark post.

    My problems with it: International Law is a sham. Only children believe in it, kind of like believing in Santa Claus. Nations do what they can and endure what they must. There is no mechanism to enforce International "Law", so there is no real "Law" there.

    Diplomacy is the recognition that one side has more "force" and is exercized by the weak to minimize the *ss-raping they will get by the strong.

    The only thing in there I agree with, is a blatant ripoff of Schwarzkopf's "kills people and break things" quote.

    So, which part of this quote was Weaselly Clark in line with when he attempted to start WWIII over the Pristina Airport, by attacking the CIS troops that had seized it?



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    International law is written by and for the have nations at the expense of the have not nations.



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    I was FOR giving the President the authority to go to War and believed GW Bush when he said that he only wanted to use that authority to pressure Saddam to open up for the UN weapons inspectors. Strategically that was a good move. It gave the President the STICK to force inspection and worked.

    BUT, once the UN Weapons Inspectors were doing their job, the President ABUSED the authority given to him. President Bush had said all along that he would let the UN Weapons Inspectors do their job. INSTEAD, our President decided to go to War against Iraq and demanded that the UN Weapons Inspectors LEAVE despite their ongoing investigation and despite the fact that the UN Weapons Inspectors had found NOTHING. Which brings us where we are today.

    The FACTS are that we had a President who SAID he only would use the authority given him to pressure Saddam to open up for inspection , and would only use the power to go to war as a LAST RESORT.

    The decision to go to War with Iraq was NOT our Last Resort. President Bush should have let the UN Weapons Inspectors continue to do their work. In essence we had a President LIE to us. Congress should NEVER give this President ANY more Authority to go to WAR unless that is their intent. He can NOT be trusted to use it as a bargaining tool. In fact, I do not Trust this President with ANYTHING,



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormin View Post
    I was FOR giving the President the authority to go to War and believed GW Bush when he said that he only wanted to use that authority to pressure Saddam to open up for the UN weapons inspectors. Strategically that was a good move. It gave the President the STICK to force inspection and worked.

    BUT, once the UN Weapons Inspectors were doing their job, the President ABUSED the authority given to him. President Bush had said all along that he would let the UN Weapons Inspectors do their job. INSTEAD, our President decided to go to War against Iraq and demanded that the UN Weapons Inspectors LEAVE despite their ongoing investigation and despite the fact that the UN Weapons Inspectors had found NOTHING. Which brings us where we are today.

    The FACTS are that we had a President who SAID he only would use the authority given him to pressure Saddam to open up for inspection , and would only use the power to go to war as a LAST RESORT.

    The decision to go to War with Iraq was NOT our Last Resort. President Bush should have let the UN Weapons Inspectors continue to do their work. In essence we had a President LIE to us. Congress should NEVER give this President ANY more Authority to go to WAR unless that is their intent. He can NOT be trusted to use it as a bargaining tool. In fact, I do not Trust this President with ANYTHING,
    If this is the DEMOCRAT'S excuse for ALLOWING the war, it falls SHORT of reality. To believe that they did not REALIZE the implications of this, would be to believe that they are IGNORANT. Saddam had done everything he could to FLOUT the international community, and there was no LOGICAL reason to think that he would COOPERATE. Man, capitalization is FUN.



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    Re: A quote that I believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    Man, capitalization is FUN.
    If you think that is fun, try the Bold, Underline and Italic buttons.


    I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.

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