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  1. #1
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    New data on Iraq

    U.S. forces, Iraqi civilian deaths drop - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

    If they can continue this trend, I think it points towards success for the troop surge. Hopefully we do not draw down too quickly, and lose what we have gained.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    I think opening a dialouge with local leaders was a pretty smart move and maybe has been more effective than the surge themselves.


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    Re: New data on Iraq

    thats good news.. but the sad thing is.. you never here good stats like that for more then a blimp.. but the second somthing goes wrong there.. its on for 4 days straight...


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    Re: New data on Iraq

    The idiotic Liberal media will paint it as a farce of a report and then say more stupid comments to try to divert attention. Happens everytime, that is unless it is reported that because of the liberals, this is finally going in the right direction.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Its great and all, but I'm not sure I would attribute it entirely to the surge. While the surge is one factor, another one is likely that many areas have been "cleansed" to such an extent that there is not as much sectarian violence simply because the sects do not have as much contact with each other.

    [edit] I would really like to see actual number over time. It is hard to judge much of anything based a small sample.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    What, good news about Iraq??? Supress it Supress it. Start calling the generals names!


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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Hillary will not have Peteus betaryus to kick around. She will have to concentrate on baby bonds.


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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Its great and all, but I'm not sure I would attribute it entirely to the surge. While the surge is one factor, another one is likely that many areas have been "cleansed" to such an extent that there is not as much sectarian violence simply because the sects do not have as much contact with each other.

    [edit] I would really like to see actual number over time. It is hard to judge much of anything based a small sample.
    I agree that a small sample of improvement doesn't make it easy to judge. Whether people agree on whether we should be there, the fact is, we are there, and whether we succeed is not just important to republicans, or democrats, it's important to America. Leaving Iraq in a huge turmoil will only serve to worsen our reputation in the world. Hopefully democrats in general will think this is more important than hanging this one on republicans. And hopefully, we will see continued success, so that our troops can come home.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    And hopefully, we will see continued success, so that our troops can come home.
    Unfortunately, military success will not be enough. There needs to be political success within Iraq. That just doesn't seem to be occurring. Our troops could likely cut casualties by 80% at this point and we would still have a mess on our hands because of a lack of political progress.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Political progress unfortuanately takes time (and security). The US constitution wasn't ratified until 12 years after the declaration of independence.


    “Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals. They are complementary.”

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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Our world standing is already about as low as it can get from occupying a country where our presence is resented.

    The accuracy of the civilian death counts is suspect at best. To a degree it depends on who is doing the counting. It was just one month ago when the news was that civilian deaths were soaring.

    Link: AP's Count: Contrary to Claims -- Civilian Deaths Soaring in Iraq



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Unfortunately, military success will not be enough. There needs to be political success within Iraq. That just doesn't seem to be occurring. Our troops could likely cut casualties by 80% at this point and we would still have a mess on our hands because of a lack of political progress.
    I agree on that too. What I really wonder is how much progress would be made if the majority of Iraqis really, truly believed that we were there until it happens. I'm not sure if we will ever know the answer to that, but I believe it is important. I'm sure that there are a significant number of Iraqis who are on the fence because of this.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Unfortunately, military success will not be enough. There needs to be political success within Iraq. That just doesn't seem to be occurring. Our troops could likely cut casualties by 80% at this point and we would still have a mess on our hands because of a lack of political progress.
    Agreed. I really hope Iraq is the last country the U.S. tries to "implement democracy" in. A government of the people has to be created, implemented, and overseen by the people, and not forced on them by an external force. If we only gain one lesson from Iraq, I hope this is it.

    Also, can we please quit with the "liberal media" one-liners? It's getting really old hearing the same unfounded assertions every time a new study/survey/story is published. It really just makes you look like a tool and doesn't bring anything to the discussion.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    I just hope it's a case of real progess/improvement. And doesn't come out to be another case of "fuzzy math".

    I'm sure for the most part, the surge is helping in the real troublesome areas. But as Kyle alludes to, it's probably still a case of "whack-a-mole" and we have to see how it looks in a few months.



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    Re: New data on Iraq

    "If they can continue this trend, I think it points towards success for the troop surge. Hopefully we do not draw down too quickly, and lose what we have gained."

    And if the Hawks had continued their trend of the first two games of the season they'd be undefeated now… If, if, if.

    Is it good that the deaths and maiming of our hero's is going down-yes. Is it good that we are still there-no. We were told, with great fanfare almost five years ago, that the "mission was accomplished." The problem is the hand-picked "Prime Minister" we put into office is a catastrophe and the “parliament” they have in place has zero political will and, I would question, any desire to make hard decisions related to the freedom our troops have provided them with their own blood.

    We have been patient with them for almost five years while they have tried to get their * together. We take kids out of high school, train them for a few months and place them on the front lines of the war. They have had nearly five years to train their military with our guidance, support and hardware. They need to take responsibility for their own security and country. I am tired of watching my friends and family sent over for their second and third tour while these clowns that double as the Iraqi parliament take a month off during the height of our troop surge for a vacation.

    What is the end game in Iraq? When is the mission truly accomplished?



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