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  1. #46
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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by cytheguy View Post
    No offense to this site. I love it. But it's true this place seems more like an Iowa discussion/smack talk board than an ISU board. It seems every opportunity to compare something to Iowa is taken. And it seems like every thread, no matter what it's about, somehow ends up in a discussion about Iowa.

    A lot of you need to realize that until we stop focusing so much on Iowa, they'll continue to call us obsessed, etc. Can't call us little brother anymore though. Little brother doesn't get over on big brother 7 out of 10 times.
    Go over to Hawk Report or Hawk Nation and tell me there are not ISU smack threads over there 100% of the time. Ain't no different then it is here, except for the fact that we make one HECK OF A LOT more sense then those other sites........

    Little Brother my arse, winning 70% of the time over the last 10 yrs don't support that farce of a theory.....



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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernHawk View Post
    No, it's not different. I believe an above poster said, and this is a quote, "First of all, the great coaches win wherever they coach."

    If that's true, then Pete Carroll is not a great coach.

    I don't agree with it - not one bit. I know Carroll is a great coach, regardless of where he was previous to USC. Just like Charlie Weis was a good offensive coach at New England - he's not doing so hot now.

    My point is that a coach can only be judged based off of where they are currently coaching.

    Ferentz started off bumpy, but he improved. The same poster said, "You're damn right I will count Chizik's first 3 years...they all count. I will also look at trend. Certainly, when you look at the trend of the iowa fb program you have to admit that it is on a downward trend...don't you?"

    Alright, so we count KF's first 3 years, but the point this poster is trying to make is that Iowa is on a down-hill trend. I'm disagreeing with that, based off of the last 5 years. Two of those years have been bad - and this year isn't over yet. If it's a 3rd year of mediocracy, then next year is extremely important.

    But it's way too early to consider Iowa on a down-hill trend. Tressel had a down year at OSU two years after he won the NC. Carr looks to be having another down year at UM. Stoops had 2 straight mediocre years at OU. Mack Brown has had his fair share of "eh" years (in Texas fans' opinions).

    Every team/coach, regardless of who they are goes through slumps. Iowa is going through a slump, but to argue they are down and out based off of two years is ignorant and mis-informed.
    You are quite "factually challenged".

    You really can't translate a coaching record from HS to College or from the NFL to College...the bottom line is that the three levels are totally different "animals". Having said that, in the NFL where there is tremendous parity and the difference between the best and worst teams is very small, Pete Carroll had a 33-31 regular season record as a head coach with only one losing season in his 4 years and 2 playoff appearances (where he went 1-2). Frankly, not too shabby in the NFL. Certainly a lot better than Ferentz did in his three years at Maine!

    You also have a very bad habit of picking your time frames to suit your arguments and not considering the entire body of work. You talk of Charlie Weis "not doing so hot now" but you conveniently leave out that he was 19-6 with two BCS bowl appearances in his first two seasons at ND. Certainly you have to look at all three seasons...not just this year when evaluating Weis.

    Your point that "a coach can only be judged based off of where they are currently coaching" is ********. Do you think that Nick Saban's record at Michigan St and LSU should be totally disregarded and only his record at Alabama should now count. Clearly, the folks at Alabama did give him some credit for his prior college HC experience when they gave him his $8 mil per year!

    Dude, plot the the wins Ferentz has at Iowa on a chart and it is clear that the trend is down right now. His first 3 years had an upward trend. His next 3 years were his peak. And the last 3 years show a downward trend.

    This really is quite simple. Using your "logic" (and I am using that term very loosely when describing your thought process)...I will choose to exclude the 3 peak years Ferentz had at Iowa since those win totals are aberationally high compared to his average during his entire college coaching career. Excluding these three abnormal years leaves his overall coaching record at 38-59 which actually makes him a poor coach rather than a mediocre coach. This "logic" is no different than you trying to exclude either his 3 years at Maine or his first 3 years at Iowa (because Saint Hayden left the cupboard bare). As I said before...you look at his entire record as a HC (in college).

    Lastly, Ferentz is nowhere near being in the same league with the four coaches you mention that have had "down" years. First of all, all four of these coaches (Tressel, Carr, Stoops, and Brown) have won National Championships. Tressel is 66-14 at OSU with his worst season being 7-5 (which happened one time). Additionally, he was 135-57-2 at Youngstown St. prior to getting the OSU gig. Carr is 115-38 at Michigan with his worst season being 7-5 (which happened one time). Stoops is 89-19 at OU with his worst season begin 7-5 (which happened one time in his first season at OU). Mack Brown is 97-22 at UT and has never won less than 9 games in a season there. Prior to that he was 69-46 at North Carolina where he took over a horrible program (of the 46 losses, 20 came in his first two years at UNC). The bottom line is that none of these coaches has lost anywhere near as much as Ferentz and none of these coaches have any downward trends in their coaching records. You really don't help your argument by trying to put the Ferentz record up against these 4 guys. These 4 coaches are elite coaches and Ferentz is mediocre (at best).



    I cheer for two teams, Iowa State and whoever is playing the hawkeyes.

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    Little hard for the Big XII to be 0-19 in OOC games when ISU beat Iowa this year... and if it's rated OOC games you're referring to, well, ISU beat a top 10 rated Iowa team in 2002 and 2005. Did you forget about Texas beating the #1 USC team in Jan 2006 to win a national title? Oklahoma beating a #12 Oregon in 2005 and #7 Washington State in 2003? K-State beating a #5 USC team in 2002? aTm beating a #23 Pittsburgh in 2002? Texas Tech beat a #18 Ole Miss in 2003, and a #9 Cal in 2004? Maybe you should stop getting your facts from Jim Zabel. After all, it's not like he's the most credible source in the universe (and that's the understatement of the century). And I see no top 10 OOC wins for the Big 10 this year.
    No, those wins were several years ago. The Big12 played a pre-season last year, post-season, and pre-season this year. Apparently (according to ESPN), they lost to 19 straight ranked opponents.


    The artist formerly known as SouthernHawk

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclone#1 View Post
    You are quite "factually challenged".

    You really can't translate a coaching record from HS to College or from the NFL to College...the bottom line is that the three levels are totally different "animals". Having said that, in the NFL where there is tremendous parity and the difference between the best and worst teams is very small, Pete Carroll had a 33-31 regular season record as a head coach with only one losing season in his 4 years and 2 playoff appearances (where he went 1-2). Frankly, not too shabby in the NFL. Certainly a lot better than Ferentz did in his three years at Maine!

    You also have a very bad habit of picking your time frames to suit your arguments and not considering the entire body of work. You talk of Charlie Weis "not doing so hot now" but you conveniently leave out that he was 19-6 with two BCS bowl appearances in his first two seasons at ND. Certainly you have to look at all three seasons...not just this year when evaluating Weis.

    Your point that "a coach can only be judged based off of where they are currently coaching" is ********. Do you think that Nick Saban's record at Michigan St and LSU should be totally disregarded and only his record at Alabama should now count. Clearly, the folks at Alabama did give him some credit for his prior college HC experience when they gave him his $8 mil per year!

    Dude, plot the the wins Ferentz has at Iowa on a chart and it is clear that the trend is down right now. His first 3 years had an upward trend. His next 3 years were his peak. And the last 3 years show a downward trend.

    This really is quite simple. Using your "logic" (and I am using that term very loosely when describing your thought process)...I will choose to exclude the 3 peak years Ferentz had at Iowa since those win totals are aberationally high compared to his average during his entire college coaching career. Excluding these three abnormal years leaves his overall coaching record at 38-59 which actually makes him a poor coach rather than a mediocre coach. This "logic" is no different than you trying to exclude either his 3 years at Maine or his first 3 years at Iowa (because Saint Hayden left the cupboard bare). As I said before...you look at his entire record as a HC (in college).

    Lastly, Ferentz is nowhere near being in the same league with the four coaches you mention that have had "down" years. First of all, all four of these coaches (Tressel, Carr, Stoops, and Brown) have won National Championships. Tressel is 66-14 at OSU with his worst season being 7-5 (which happened one time). Additionally, he was 135-57-2 at Youngstown St. prior to getting the OSU gig. Carr is 115-38 at Michigan with his worst season being 7-5 (which happened one time). Stoops is 89-19 at OU with his worst season begin 7-5 (which happened one time in his first season at OU). Mack Brown is 97-22 at UT and has never won less than 9 games in a season there. Prior to that he was 69-46 at North Carolina where he took over a horrible program (of the 46 losses, 20 came in his first two years at UNC). The bottom line is that none of these coaches has lost anywhere near as much as Ferentz and none of these coaches have any downward trends in their coaching records. You really don't help your argument by trying to put the Ferentz record up against these 4 guys. These 4 coaches are elite coaches and Ferentz is mediocre (at best).
    This post right here is about you believing what you want to believe. You can't take out KF's high years, and you claim that since the past two years were downers, he's a mediocre coach.

    Football is like the stock market. If a stock goes up, that's awesome. It'll go down for a bit, and then go back up. You must be one of those people who watch it go up, and then when it starts to fall, "Sell! Sell! Sell!!!"

    My point is, there is absolutely no proof that Ferentz's teams are on a downhill trend. It's 2 years removed from a Capital One Bowl win. Like I said earlier, if this season is mediocre, then next season will be extremely important. I think he knows that, his staff knows that, and the fans know that.


    The artist formerly known as SouthernHawk

  5. #50
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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernHawk View Post
    This post right here is about you believing what you want to believe. You can't take out KF's high years, and you claim that since the past two years were downers, he's a mediocre coach.

    Football is like the stock market. If a stock goes up, that's awesome. It'll go down for a bit, and then go back up. You must be one of those people who watch it go up, and then when it starts to fall, "Sell! Sell! Sell!!!"

    My point is, there is absolutely no proof that Ferentz's teams are on a downhill trend. It's 2 years removed from a Capital One Bowl win. Like I said earlier, if this season is mediocre, then next season will be extremely important. I think he knows that, his staff knows that, and the fans know that.
    Actually, my post is all about putting the cold hard facts right in front of your face.

    I only took out the best Ferentz years to show you the lunacy of your argument that he is more than a mediocre coach...you don't want to count his time at Maine or his first three years at Iowa...as I said before...you count it all. When you look at it all you get a 69-65 record which is mediocre.

    I am in the investment business...football is nothing like the stock market. Certainly the Ferentz record has been very volatile like the stock market can be. But the records of guys like Stoops, Tressel, etc. are not volatile at all...they show consistent excellence as measured by the win-loss record over a long period of time.

    I know this is hard to take, but the "proof" that the Iowa program is on a downward trend is clearly evident by the facts...namely the win-loss record. Buddy, face it...you are in denial right now.



    I cheer for two teams, Iowa State and whoever is playing the hawkeyes.

  6. #51
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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclone#1 View Post
    Actually, my post is all about putting the cold hard facts right in front of your face.

    I only took out the best Ferentz years to show you the lunacy of your argument that he is more than a mediocre coach...you don't want to count his time at Maine or his first three years at Iowa...as I said before...you count it all. When you look at it all you get a 69-65 record which is mediocre.

    I am in the investment business...football is nothing like the stock market. Certainly the Ferentz record has been very volatile like the stock market can be. But the records of guys like Stoops, Tressel, etc. are not volatile at all...they show consistent excellence as measured by the win-loss record over a long period of time.

    I know this is hard to take, but the "proof" that the Iowa program is on a downward trend is clearly evident by the facts...namely the win-loss record. Buddy, face it...you are in denial right now.
    Sorry, your argument is moot without the 2002-2004 seasons - as shown by how you said "I took out those years to show you he's mediocre without them."

    Give me a break. You must be one helluva fortune teller if you can tell a team is going under after just two years of .500 seasons (which followed 3 years of 10+ win seasons).

    You didn't point out cold hard facts, you twisted them to fit your needs. I may have pointed out convenient years - but they included the past two. From 2002-2007, Ferentz is 46-21. The first 3 years were re-building years.

    Let's say we still count those - that's fine. 11-24 in his first three seasons. Here's his career break-down:

    11-24 in his first three seasons
    46-21 in his last 5 seasons

    Regardless of how the past two years have gone - which have admittedly been mediocre, he is well above average. Like I said, if the mediocracy continues, then start saying Iowa is on a down hill slump. But it's impossible to tell after just 2 seasons.


    The artist formerly known as SouthernHawk

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    I wouldn't necessarily call him mediocre. I'm not sure a mediocre coach could achieve the results Iowa had over a 3 year run. Now, he's definitely not among the best in the profession, and is struggling now, but still probably rates at least 'good' :) He is trending downward as cyclone #1 said but most good coaches at less than top schools have a hard time being great every year... I am interested to see where this year and next go for them.

    Hopefully Gene's trend is only upward!


    Nothing to see here mods. Keep moving.

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernHawk View Post
    Sorry, your argument is moot without the 2002-2004 seasons - as shown by how you said "I took out those years to show you he's mediocre without them."

    Give me a break. You must be one helluva fortune teller if you can tell a team is going under after just two years of .500 seasons (which followed 3 years of 10+ win seasons).

    You didn't point out cold hard facts, you twisted them to fit your needs. I may have pointed out convenient years - but they included the past two. From 2002-2007, Ferentz is 46-21. The first 3 years were re-building years.

    Let's say we still count those - that's fine. 11-24 in his first three seasons. Here's his career break-down:

    11-24 in his first three seasons
    46-21 in his last 5 seasons

    Regardless of how the past two years have gone - which have admittedly been mediocre, he is well above average. Like I said, if the mediocracy continues, then start saying Iowa is on a down hill slump. But it's impossible to tell after just 2 seasons.
    OMG he is talking trends. There have been more down trends in KF's career that up ones. He had an amazing three year run, but that was nearly 1/2 of his career wins. So which is the aberration??? You can argue that the three year run was the exception rather than the rule. That is what he is saying, I am sorry that this is tough for you.


    Jeffrey A Crawford

  9. #54
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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by darts180 View Post
    OMG he is talking trends. There have been more down trends in KF's career that up ones. He had an amazing three year run, but that was nearly 1/2 of his career wins. So which is the aberration??? You can argue that the three year run was the exception rather than the rule. That is what he is saying, I am sorry that this is tough for you.
    Actually, if you want to look at it that way, there have been more up trends than down trends. His first three years there were improvements, his second set of three years there were improvements, and the last two years have been mediocre.

    There have been more "upwards trends" than the other way around.

    But, I refuse to call a 2 year stretch a "trend". It's a slump. A trend implies that it will remain that way, and fans should begin to expect mediocracy. It doesn't work that way. KF and his staff set a standard for themselves, especially with their pay, and they plan on earning that pay and keeping those expectations.


    The artist formerly known as SouthernHawk

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernHawk View Post
    Actually, if you want to look at it that way, there have been more up trends than down trends. His first three years there were improvements, his second set of three years there were improvements, and the last two years have been mediocre.

    There have been more "upwards trends" than the other way around.

    But, I refuse to call a 2 year stretch a "trend". It's a slump. A trend implies that it will remain that way, and fans should begin to expect mediocracy. It doesn't work that way. KF and his staff set a standard for themselves, especially with their pay, and they plan on earning that pay and keeping those expectations.

    So we choose to ignore facts now................hmmmmmmm. Well OK, whatever works for you. Good luck this season.


    Jeffrey A Crawford

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernHawk View Post
    Sorry, your argument is moot without the 2002-2004 seasons - as shown by how you said "I took out those years to show you he's mediocre without them."

    Give me a break. You must be one helluva fortune teller if you can tell a team is going under after just two years of .500 seasons (which followed 3 years of 10+ win seasons).

    You didn't point out cold hard facts, you twisted them to fit your needs. I may have pointed out convenient years - but they included the past two. From 2002-2007, Ferentz is 46-21. The first 3 years were re-building years.

    Let's say we still count those - that's fine. 11-24 in his first three seasons. Here's his career break-down:

    11-24 in his first three seasons
    46-21 in his last 5 seasons

    Regardless of how the past two years have gone - which have admittedly been mediocre, he is well above average. Like I said, if the mediocracy continues, then start saying Iowa is on a down hill slump. But it's impossible to tell after just 2 seasons.
    You need to read what I've written a little more closely as witnessed by your misquote of me. I clearly advocate looking at the coach's entire body of work. When you do that with Ferentz he is 69-65...which can only be described as mediocre. You, however, want to exclude the Maine years, exclude the first three Iowa years, look exclusively at the second three Iowa years and wait and see on the last 2 1/3 years.

    Actually, for argument's sake I was trying to use your twisted logic of excluding certain years in the coach's record to show you that basing your argument only on certain years is convoluted and incorrect. To clarify, what I said when I did this was that if you exclude the three best years (the only ones you really care to include) he could only be described as a poor coach. To correct your incorrect quote above, my specific quote was "Excluding these three abnormal years leaves his overall coaching record at 38-59 which actually makes him a poor coach rather than a mediocre coach.".

    I'm not claiming to be able to predict the future but I sure as hell can spot a trend and that trend is downward right now at Iowa. Again, you want to discount Maine and the first 3 "re-building" years at Iowa. The bottom line is that I am using all of the facts...you just want to use only those that are "convenient" to you. I am not the one "twisting" anything here...that would be you!

    If you want to call 69-65 "well above average"...go right ahead and do it. I think most sensible people would call that average (mediocre). Again, I am looking at the man's entire body of work to draw my conclusions. Frankly, I find it interesting that you are more than willing to conclude that Ferentz is "well above average" as a HC based upon his three good seasons at Iowa but you are unwilling to admit "Iowa is on a down hill slump" right now because "it's impossible to tell after just 2 seasons".



    I cheer for two teams, Iowa State and whoever is playing the hawkeyes.

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by darts180 View Post
    So we choose to ignore facts now................hmmmmmmm. Well OK, whatever works for you. Good luck this season.
    What? How am I ignoring facts? You didn't present any facts. You can't say something, say it's fact, and then when somebody refutes your argument claim "you're ignoring facts there buddy!"

    It doesn't work that way.


    The artist formerly known as SouthernHawk

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernHawk View Post
    What? How am I ignoring facts? You didn't present any facts. You can't say something, say it's fact, and then when somebody refutes your argument claim "you're ignoring facts there buddy!"

    It doesn't work that way.

    Well statistical analysis didn't work for you. Take away the 31-7, and he has Dan McCarney like numbers.

    I like Ferentz, I just never got the HE IS GREAT thing. 02 was a great team, but they got every conceivable break in 03-04 culminating in Tate to Holloway. Amazingly the breaks stopped coming, and he is 13-12 in years 7 and 8 of his tenure. Then you take into account that they appear to be regressing in year 9, and what does that lead you to think, maybe the 31-7 was the exception rather than the rule. The rest of his career would bear that fact out. He won 11 games at Maine, forgetting the first three years with 1 3 and 7 wins, the last two, after 3 top 10 finishes (which should aid recruiting), and he is 15-14 (that screams average).

    So was it all of the fortune that made him the "legend" that he is in many Hawk fans minds???


    Jeffrey A Crawford

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    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by darts180 View Post
    Well statistical analysis didn't work for you. Take away the 31-7, and he has Dan McCarney like numbers.

    I like Ferentz, I just never got the HE IS GREAT thing. 02 was a great team, but they got every conceivable break in 03-04 culminating in Tate to Holloway. Amazingly the breaks stopped coming, and he is 13-12 in years 7 and 8 of his tenure. Then you take into account that they appear to be regressing in year 9, and what does that lead you to think, maybe the 31-7 was the exception rather than the rule. The rest of his career would bear that fact out. He won 11 games at Maine, forgetting the first three years with 1 3 and 7 wins, the last two, after 3 top 10 finishes (which should aid recruiting), and he is 15-14 (that screams average).

    So was it all of the fortune that made him the "legend" that he is in many Hawk fans minds???
    Take away Pete Carroll's last 4 years and he's mediocre too.

    In fact, let's take away all the good seasons from the current coaches, and they're all mediocre!

    You're right - I concede. If we take away half of KF's seasons, he's mediocre. Let's only count the ones where he first came in and the last two years. That's good reasoning. So, you're right. In order to judge how good of a coach KF is, we need to take away all of his success, Big Ten Championships, Top 10 seasons, 10+ win seasons, January Bowl Games, BCS Bowl game, and only take into account his first three seasons and last two.

    Looks like there's plenty of mediocrity to go around!


    The artist formerly known as SouthernHawk

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    50,815
    Level
    69
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 7
    Given: 42

    Re: Ferentz looking backwards...

    Pete Carroll has lost 6 games since his first season. Let's not bring a legend into this convo.



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  • Football
  • Iowa State vs. North Dakota State
  • August 30, 2014
  • 06:00 PM