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  1. #16
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by Clone9 View Post
    Jacy was not asked to score at all. It takes a lot of pressure off and reduces the opportunity for turnovers when you don't do anything but pass. Don't get me wrong, I loved Jacy, but he was nowhere near the complete player that DG, Tinsley, Blalock, or many of the others were.
    DG's role his first three years?



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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    DG's role his first three years?
    Not even close. Take a look at the scoring averages.



  3. #18
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by LindenCy View Post
    Not even close. Take a look at the scoring averages.
    Close enough.
    Jacy could have scored zero a game and their roles would not have been different enough to degrade how much better Jacy's stats were.



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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    I liked Jacy and he was great at taking care of the ball and performed his role, but they are very different players.



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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    Close enough.
    Jacy could have scored zero a game and their roles would not have been different enough to degrade how much better Jacy's stats were.
    Yes, because with the shot clock winding down Floyd often spread the floor and let Jacy take his guy 1-on-1 to either get his own shot or create one for a teammate.



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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Seriously, now people are comparing Jacy and Diante? This is beyond ridiculous.



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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Jacy didnt have to score he had a good team around him, but when needed he could score.


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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Thanks for the stats. However, it shouldn't be needed. Anyone that bags on DG for the turnover thing is a fool.



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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by swarthmoreCY View Post
    DG's role his first three years?

    Make sure Craig gets the ball.


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  10. #25
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by khaal53 View Post
    With Diante Garrett moving into first place all-time on the ISU career turnover list I wanted to take a closer look at the numbers and offer a few thoughts. First, like Brett Favre holding the interception record it is a bit of a backhanded compliment because it means that you were at least around long enough and played enough despite the turnovers that a record was able to be set.

    Also, stats like this are a bit disingenuous, in my opinion, because it offers no context. For instance, as I tweeted a couple weeks back, if Don Smith (Zaid Abdul-Aziz) had played as many games as Jeff Grayer he would've scored 2,787 career points as opposed to Grayer's 2,502. Yet, Grayer is often considered the most prolific scorer in ISU history.

    I included the points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game, steals per game, and assists:turnovers per game as auxiliary information. Although assists and turnovers are often used together to compile assist-to-turnover ratio, I don't think they are really all that related. Other than to say, for every silly play at least he gets credit for creating a basket on offense. But if that is the case then FG's made should also be lumped into that ratio.

    Further, I included games started to get some idea of what kind of minutes these players have played in order to get some context to how many potential possessions they played to be able to notch a turnover in the first place. For a guy like Garrett it would be difficult to state just how many possessions and percentage of seconds the ball is in his hands and he has been asked to be the sole creator many times. All of that just increases his exposure for potential to turn the ball over. It should be noted that there are surely similar scenarios with the other players listed.

    All that said, here is the data I'm building up to. Of the top 25 players in most career turnovers here is the data for turnovers per game. Notable guys that turned the ball over at a high rate but didn't play enough or long enough to make the top 25 turnover list would be: Mike Taylor - 5.42, Derrick Hayes - 3.79, Tim Barnes - 2.77, Ricky Morgan - 2.72, and Marquis Gilstrap - 2.72.

    Also keep in mind that turnovers have been tracked for ISU players since just the 1982-83 season. This chart is sorted by TO/G but it does show the rank of these 25 players for total turnovers, assists per game and assists:turnovers per game as well. Also keep in mind that I didn't compile this in order to prove how great of a point guard I believe DG to be, more so it is to shed light that bagging on him for being the all time career turnovers leader is unfair.
    Great stats but, fair or not, point guards are judged on WINS. Especially conference wins. As well as the ability to deliver in the clutch and the cruicial ability to close out games. Feel free to spin it however you want but you can not ignore the facts.



  11. #26
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Why people bashing on DG? Ofcourse his TO numbers are high. He plays PG and most minutes/games compares to other players on the list.



  12. #27
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by egunzy View Post
    Great stats but, fair or not, point guards are judged on WINS. Especially conference wins. As well as the ability to deliver in the clutch and the cruicial ability to close out games. Feel free to spin it however you want but you can not ignore the facts.
    I don't judge them entirely on wins. I think Diante has been very solid for us. Not one of the best to ever put on the uni but he is very, very solid and this team would be complete and utter crap without him. I'd take four more years of Diante in a heartbeat, and I bet people will miss him next year when we're likely going to be starting a JUCO or a freshman.




  13. #28
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    He's had the ball almost exclusively in his hands for 4 years on bad teams, of course he's going to have a high number of turnovers. Has anyone said, "It is what it is" yet?



  14. #29
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by khaal53 View Post
    With Diante Garrett moving into first place all-time on the ISU career turnover list I wanted to take a closer look at the numbers and offer a few thoughts. First, like Brett Favre holding the interception record it is a bit of a backhanded compliment because it means that you were at least around long enough and played enough despite the turnovers that a record was able to be set.

    Also, stats like this are a bit disingenuous, in my opinion, because it offers no context. For instance, as I tweeted a couple weeks back, if Don Smith (Zaid Abdul-Aziz) had played as many games as Jeff Grayer he would've scored 2,787 career points as opposed to Grayer's 2,502. Yet, Grayer is often considered the most prolific scorer in ISU history.

    I included the points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game, steals per game, and assists:turnovers per game as auxiliary information. Although assists and turnovers are often used together to compile assist-to-turnover ratio, I don't think they are really all that related. Other than to say, for every silly play at least he gets credit for creating a basket on offense. But if that is the case then FG's made should also be lumped into that ratio.

    Further, I included games started to get some idea of what kind of minutes these players have played in order to get some context to how many potential possessions they played to be able to notch a turnover in the first place. For a guy like Garrett it would be difficult to state just how many possessions and percentage of seconds the ball is in his hands and he has been asked to be the sole creator many times. All of that just increases his exposure for potential to turn the ball over. It should be noted that there are surely similar scenarios with the other players listed.

    All that said, here is the data I'm building up to. Of the top 25 players in most career turnovers here is the data for turnovers per game. Notable guys that turned the ball over at a high rate but didn't play enough or long enough to make the top 25 turnover list would be: Mike Taylor - 5.42, Derrick Hayes - 3.79, Tim Barnes - 2.77, Ricky Morgan - 2.72, and Marquis Gilstrap - 2.72.

    Also keep in mind that turnovers have been tracked for ISU players since just the 1982-83 season. This chart is sorted by TO/G but it does show the rank of these 25 players for total turnovers, assists per game and assists:turnovers per game as well. Also keep in mind that I didn't compile this in order to prove how great of a point guard I believe DG to be, more so it is to shed light that bagging on him for being the all time career turnovers leader is unfair.
    Are your DG statistics accurate? You have 2.33 A/G, which would put his career assists at about 520. Doesn't he have 559? Also, there is no need to do A/G:T/G ratio (or as you have the column headed, (A:T)/G). It should just be A:T ratio over the career (the G's cancel out). By doing it the way you are doing, either the rounding is messing with your numbers or there is some other error, because based on your data, DG's A:T should be 1.56, although if you use the 559 assists, it should be 1.67.


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  15. #30
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    Re: DG - Career Turnovers Leader

    Quote Originally Posted by drmwevr08 View Post
    It is of course true that he keeps us in games but when does that cease being an excuse for being AWFUL at the end of them?
    Excellent point! I would much prefer us not even being in the game then we could stop ******** about how AWFUL we are at the end of the game!


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