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  1. #31
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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by cybsball20 View Post
    Bagwell played in the Astrodome, hardly a great place to hit

    And while All Star games may not be the best tool to measure a player, it helps to show how they match up against other players of that time. 2 All Star games in 23 years isn't that impressive.
    Not really. It just shows which teams had fans that stuffed the ballot boxes, or which players gained more media attention, which frequently comes from playing for certain teams or with a certain style, i.e. strikeout pitchers or home run hitters.

    Can't use the All-Star game selections as a criteria. It's too variable and dependent on other factors.


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  2. #32
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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by cybsball20 View Post
    Bert compiled great stats over time, but 0 Cy Youngs and 2 All Star appearances. He played in some great years for pitching as well. I think he is a hall of famer, but not as much as a sure thing as alot of people do. Larkin, Bagwell, Walker, and Palmeiro should all get in...

    I actually agree with this statement. Bert's stats are what got him in, not his post-season accomplishments or all star appearances. Bert was and still is a fan favorite which sometimes blows what they accomplished on the field out of proportion.

    For example, as a Cubs fan, I always wanted Ron Santo to get inducted, but his stats didn't necessarily back it up. Because he was always a fan favorite, people thought he was more deserving than he actually was.



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneErik View Post
    Not really. It just shows which teams had fans that stuffed the ballot boxes, or which players gained more media attention, which frequently comes from playing for certain teams or with a certain style, i.e. strikeout pitchers or home run hitters.

    Can't use the All-Star game selections as a criteria. It's too variable and dependent on other factors.

    But pitchers aren't selected by the fans



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  4. #34
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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by dtclones View Post
    For example, as a Cubs fan, I always wanted Ron Santo to get inducted, but his stats didn't necessarily back it up. Because he was always a fan favorite, people thought he was more deserving than he actually was.
    There are an awful lot of experts who disagree with you, including Bill James.

    6-4-2 — an Angels/Dodgers double play blog: Ron Santo Passes, And Bill James On Why He Should Be In The Hall Of Fame

    Will Ron Santo's death finally get him into the MLB Hall of Fame? | December



  5. #35
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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    The problem with Bagwell's candidacy will be the era he played in will be taken into account, as well as his career splits. JB averaged 22 HRs per year during the first 5 seasons of his career ('91-'95). From '96 to '00, that went up to 39. He was still in the prime of his career but that is one heck of an increase. There are too many of those raw stat increases in the late 90s to not cast doubt on any player. His one time teammate, Luis Gonzalez averaged 12 HRs per year early in his career and from age 30 to 34 it jumped to 33!



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger View Post
    The problem with Bagwell's candidacy will be the era he played in will be taken into account, as well as his career splits. JB averaged 22 HRs per year during the first 5 seasons of his career ('91-'95). From '96 to '00, that went up to 39. He was still in the prime of his career but that is one heck of an increase. There are too many of those raw stat increases in the late 90s to not cast doubt on any player. His one time teammate, Luis Gonzalez averaged 12 HRs per year early in his career and from age 30 to 34 it jumped to 33!
    But it's also within the normal "curve" of a player's progression/regression. Unlike Bonds and Clemens, who peaked after they began their regression, when Bagwell regressed, he regressed.


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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    But it's also within the normal "curve" of a player's progression/regression. Unlike Bonds and Clemens, who peaked after they began their regression, when Bagwell regressed, he regressed.
    Power is often the last skill to develop. Keith Murphy brought up Bagwell's minor league stats and only having 6 home runs in a little over 200 games ,but Bagwell was also 21-22 in those years. there aren't a whole lot of guys anywhere that will hit for much power in their first years with wood bats and facing that kind of pitching.

    It's also consistant with the time that weightlifting became accepted in Major League baseball. Prior to that time, alot of people swore off lifting for fear that it would tighten them up and slow down their batspeed.



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    There is obviously a debate on whether or not he's HOF worthy. I want to see him get in too.

    Yeah, there are a lot of experts who disagree with me, but there are a lot of Hall of Famers who agree with me...



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by jdoggivjc View Post
    But it's also within the normal "curve" of a player's progression/regression. Unlike Bonds and Clemens, who peaked after they began their regression, when Bagwell regressed, he regressed.
    I agree with the statement about peaking after regression as being suspect. The point I was making was that seeing improvements like Bagwell and Gonzalez showed was not part of a normal progression. After 5 years in the big leagues, they suddenly figured it out?

    For perspective, here are the stats for 3 members of the 500 home run club who played from the '50s to the '80s:

    Player 1 averaged 33 HRs first 5 years and 32 the next 5.
    Player 2 average 42 and 35, respectively.
    Player 3 was 34 and 38.

    If you can hit for power, it does not just appear in year 6.

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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    What year did they move the fences in at the Astrodome and add the gardens? I am pretty sure it was the last few years before Minute Made opened, that could be part of it too... Also, if you take ANYONE who has never lifted and suddenly put them on a very intense lifting program they should make some pretty significant improvements.



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger View Post
    I agree with the statement about peaking after regression as being suspect. The point I was making was that seeing improvements like Bagwell and Gonzalez showed was not part of a normal progression. After 5 years in the big leagues, they suddenly figured it out?

    For perspective, here are the stats for 3 members of the 500 home run club who played from the '50s to the '80s:

    Player 1 averaged 33 HRs first 5 years and 32 the next 5.
    Player 2 average 42 and 35, respectively.
    Player 3 was 34 and 38.

    If you can hit for power, it does not just appear in year 6.

    (Robinson, Killebrew and Schmidt)
    Robinson was the model of consistency for most of his 10 year period. Killebrew missed parts of several seasons in years 6-10 due to injuries which impacted his HR average in those years. Both Killebrew and Schmidt were free swingers who hit for power early in their careers - ignoring the bonus baby years where Killebrew wasn't major league ready, but had to be kept on the roster due to rules at that time. Both of these guys became more complete players after years 1-5 as they refined their strike zones and hit for better average while still maintaining their power.



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by dtclones View Post
    There is obviously a debate on whether or not he's HOF worthy. I want to see him get in too.

    Yeah, there are a lot of experts who disagree with me, but there are a lot of Hall of Famers who agree with me...
    The problem with your argument is that the stats do back up his induction into the hall of fame.

    Name 5 third basemen with better stats that played before 1990.



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    There are some really knowledgable posters around here and I love these types of discussions. Here's one I'd like to hear about or if someone can turn up existing comparisons - I heard twice this week about how Tim Raines should be in. To me, although I haven't looked at the stats recently enough to be sure, he doesn't pass muster. He toiled in Montreal for a awhile though so that couldn't have helped. Seems like he had a few good years, but not monster ones, and had speed (SBs), and a long enough career to be a bit of a stat complier, but doesnt feel like a HOFer.


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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    The problem with your argument is that the stats do back up his induction into the hall of fame.

    Name 5 third basemen with better stats that played before 1990.
    If his stats back up his induction why isn't he in? The statement that his stats back up his induction is very subjective. Everyone has different standards as to what should get you in and what doesn't. Santo is right on the edge of what gets a player in but for some reason never got voted in and it isn't because he's not well liked. What else could it be?

    Brooks Robinson
    Wade Boggs
    George Brett
    Mike Schmidt
    Eddie Mathews

    There's five.



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    Re: Blyleven, Alomar elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by drmwevr08 View Post
    There are some really knowledgable posters around here and I love these types of discussions. Here's one I'd like to hear about or if someone can turn up existing comparisons - I heard twice this week about how Tim Raines should be in. To me, although I haven't looked at the stats recently enough to be sure, he doesn't pass muster. He toiled in Montreal for a awhile though so that couldn't have helped. Seems like he had a few good years, but not monster ones, and had speed (SBs), and a long enough career to be a bit of a stat complier, but doesnt feel like a HOFer.

    If you just look at the stats that one would want in a leadoff hitter than you could argue Raines was one of, if not the greatest leadoff hitter of all time. It would be hard to leave a guy like that out of the Hall.



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