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    Special prayer time for muslim students at public school


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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    I'd say "Welcome to America". If the people in the community want their kids to pray in school, let them pray. Whether that means to God, Allah, or Cthulu, I think community standards is a better means, than some "litmus test" of determining whether it is a violation of the First Amendment, when religious freedom conflict with state-run institutions.

    Freedom "of", not freedom "from" religion.

    Seriously, I have no problem with followers of Islam doing their 5 prayers a day, even if it involves using state facilities and time.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    I agree. Let them do as they believe. They have a right as long as it doesnt directly effect anyone else.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    Quote Originally Posted by herbiedoobie View Post
    Seriously, I have no problem with followers of Islam doing their 5 prayers a day, even if it involves using state facilities and time.
    I would just add that this is fine as long as Christians have the same opportunity...



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    Quote Originally Posted by herbiedoobie View Post
    I'd say "Welcome to America". If the people in the community want their kids to pray in school, let them pray. Whether that means to God, Allah, or Cthulu, I think community standards is a better means, than some "litmus test" of determining whether it is a violation of the First Amendment, when religious freedom conflict with state-run institutions.

    Freedom "of", not freedom "from" religion.

    Seriously, I have no problem with followers of Islam doing their 5 prayers a day, even if it involves using state facilities and time.
    I very much agree. However, the religious rights group that was quoted suggested providing school space for rabbis, priests, etc. to meet with the kids. That crosses the line in my thinking. Allow the kids, whatever their faith, the freedom (constitutionally guaranteed, by the way) to practice their religion.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I very much agree. However, the religious rights group that was quoted suggested providing school space for rabbis, priests, etc. to meet with the kids. That crosses the line in my thinking. Allow the kids, whatever their faith, the freedom (constitutionally guaranteed, by the way) to practice their religion.
    What is this "constitution" you speak of? I always thought it was an old old wooden ship. Or is that diversity?



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    This will be a hard nut to crack. All of this stuff limiting school sponsored prayer hasn't had to deal with the fact that in some religions, prayer is much more structured. Christians can pretty much pray when they want for as long as they want. The prayer can be done silently with head bowed. Thus, we are still have moments of silence, during which people are allowed to say individual prayers.

    However, Muslims, if they follow their religion, are required to pray at specific times in very demonstrative ways (kneel on mat face west, bow to the ground). In order to allow for them to follow their religion, suddenly specific accommodations need to be met.

    So how can a school allow for them to practice their religion without actively promoting it? I suppose as long as school officials do not lead the prayer, but the school day is still disrupted to accommodate.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    I very much agree. However, the religious rights group that was quoted suggested providing school space for rabbis, priests, etc. to meet with the kids. That crosses the line in my thinking. Allow the kids, whatever their faith, the freedom (constitutionally guaranteed, by the way) to practice their religion.
    If we can't have Christianity in schools then we should have no religion at all in them. If you allow this you have to allow the same for Christians which they have done about everything to keep that away including some not wanting to say "under God" in the POA.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    Quote Originally Posted by herbiedoobie View Post
    I'd say "Welcome to America". If the people in the community want their kids to pray in school, let them pray. Whether that means to God, Allah, or Cthulu, I think community standards is a better means, than some "litmus test" of determining whether it is a violation of the First Amendment, when religious freedom conflict with state-run institutions.

    Freedom "of", not freedom "from" religion.

    Seriously, I have no problem with followers of Islam doing their 5 prayers a day, even if it involves using state facilities and time.
    What does any of that have to do with educating students? Either you are in the business of education, or you aren't. Don't get distracted by this extraneous, unimportant crap that is a family responsibility to begin with.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    I think that if a school were to do this, they should also have a moment of silence before lunch for person prayer, as that is a traditional Christian time to pray.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    Quote Originally Posted by photomuse View Post
    This will be a hard nut to crack. All of this stuff limiting school sponsored prayer hasn't had to deal with the fact that in some religions, prayer is much more structured. Christians can pretty much pray when they want for as long as they want. The prayer can be done silently with head bowed. Thus, we are still have moments of silence, during which people are allowed to say individual prayers.

    However, Muslims, if they follow their religion, are required to pray at specific times in very demonstrative ways (kneel on mat face west, bow to the ground). In order to allow for them to follow their religion, suddenly specific accommodations need to be met.

    So how can a school allow for them to practice their religion without actively promoting it? I suppose as long as school officials do not lead the prayer, but the school day is still disrupted to accommodate.
    This is a great point. I don't think it's that they are promoting Islam, they are just allowing them to participate in their religion without disrupting the classroom. If they don't allow time for these kids to practice their religion, they would have students leaving class or praying at recess which would be worse than allotting a certain time for it. Like you said, Christians can pray whenever they like, Muslims HAVE to pray at certain times if they are a devout follower. I don't think it's promoting Islam over any other religion. It's not like some of the kids are going to be like "hey, they get to leave and pray, that looks like fun, I'm going to join that religion!"


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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    I think if they allow prayer in school, they must allow kickball in church.


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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    Ooooooooh kickball. I miss that.



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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    1995-AUG-10: Federal Guidelines: espondingto a directive from te President, the federal Deparment of Education issued a memo topublic school superintendents which discussed religious freedoms in schools. Some principles stated are:
    -Studentscan read eligious books,say a prayer beore meals and pray before tests, etc. to he same extent that theymay engage in comparable secular non-disruptive activities.
    -In informal settings (cafeterias, hallways, etc.) students may pray and may discuss religious topics with students, just as they may talk about other subjects.
    -Students can proselytize with other students; however they cannngage in eligiously motivated harassent.
    -No student can be coerced into participating in any religious activity.
    _Techers and administrators cnnot discourage or promote religious activity because of its religious content; this applies to anti-religious activity as well.
    -Schools can teach about religion and its role in society; they can teach about the Bible as literature. But they cannot provide religious instruction.
    -Students can distribute religious literature in the same way they are permitted t distribute non-religious literature.
    -Students may be released to attend religious classes at other locations; teachers and administrators cannot encourage or discourage students from taking advantage of such classes.
    -Schools can teach about common civic values, but they must be neutral with respect to religion.

    'Loaning any religious book to a student is a violation of the principle of separation of church and state, because (as state actors), the on implies school support for a specific religion ... unconstitutional, unless the books are part of a comparative religion course.'

    Students in U.S. public schools are free to:
    -Take Bibles or othr religious texts with them on the school bus or in the hallways.
    -Pray alone or in groups at the flagpole or elsewhere on school grounds.
    -Pray in classrooms outside of regular teaching hours.
    -Say grace and/or pray in a school cafeteria.
    -Form a Bible study club or any ther religious club, if even one student-led group is allowed in the school. (Equal Access Act of 1984)
    -Students can wear t-shirts with religious text. They can wear religious jewelry.
    -Students can hand out religious materials.

    Religioustolerance.org


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    Re: Special prayer time for muslim students at public school

    A very different view from our brothers and sisters down under. I think everyone needs to give this a read!!! (true or not it has merit!)


    Urban Legends Reference Pages: Muslims Out of Australia! <Urban Legends Reference Pages: Muslims Out of Australia!>

    Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

    A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television.

    "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

    Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off". Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

    Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
    Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

    "However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia ." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

    "This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom" "We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!"

    "Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."
    "We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

    "If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

    "This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
    'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

    "If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."



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