Is the "surge" working?
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    Is the "surge" working?

    It's certainly too early to tell if the surge will work but it's off to a postive start at least.

    Iraqi civilian deaths dropped in June - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

    I think the war is over in Septermber unless General Patreaus says the surge was successful. If General Patreaus gives a good report it will be pretty difficult for the Dems to cut funding.

    We shall see.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Militarily if the surge works, it still won't be successful politically unless the Iraqis themselves have the will to form a united government



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    I'd like to believe so. But then again I believed that the Iraqis were going to greet us with flower and open arms. 4 years later...

    However, I have to believe that this is yet another chapter in the "whack-a-mole" situation that is the Iraq war. That is, the surge is working, in terms that the insurgents are underground and moving out of the "surged" areas. Areas that aren't as populated and will incur the numbers of casualites. And also a situation that when the "surge" is over, they will return. Perhaps even before the surge is over, when they identify the weak areas.

    Fact is, this is a war the US can't win. Not until the Iraqi military, police, political infrastructure is in place to take control of the situation and replace the US military. It's pretty obvious that on the whole, the local population won't give up the terrorists until they know they are relatively safe in doing so - no retribution. And that the US can't really do, with people knowing they will leave and when they see little out of their own forces.

    Unfortunately, the other half of that story is that last quarter was the deadliest for US forces since the war began.

    JMO



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    The surge should have been employed four years ago; then it might have worked, now I have grave misgivings about it working today.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Can it make the sunnis and shites live together without slaughter? Nopers. We just need out at this point. Call it a great victory, surge worked like it should have, whatever and then skeeeeeedaddle and let the blood flow like a river.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Honestly, I think they should take the Yugoslavian example, and divide it up into three countries, with equally shared revenue, per capita. Sunni, Shia and Kurd. It is only one country right now because it was arbitrarily set up after I believe world war I. Guarantee the sovereignty of each, and use our military to help man the border checkpoints until they are able to do it themselves.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Quote Originally Posted by joepublic View Post
    Can it make the sunnis and shites live together without slaughter? Nopers. We just need out at this point. Call it a great victory, surge worked like it should have, whatever and then skeeeeeedaddle and let the blood flow like a river.
    Secrarian violence is down as well according to NBC news last night. Will it stay down? Who knows.

    I do believe the strategy is too "hold" these areas now that they are cleared. Under Rumsfield we were good at "clearing" but poor at "holding" and "building". He didn't think we had the troops to do it.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    It's hard for us civilians in the US to base whether the surge is working or not... considering how stories can be slanted (either direction)... however, while Iraqi civilian deaths are down, US troop deaths are up, as the last 3 months have been one of the bloodiest spans in the entire war.

    here is what is going to happen... come september when the "surge" will be reviewed by Congress, Bush will say that there is mixed results... some successes, some failures, but we just need more time, and perhaps more troops, the check back with us, oh, say in the beginning of 2008. How much time are we willing to give? are we willing to implement the draft? that may change peoples opinions in a hurry....

    I just wish there was a clear definition of victory..... we could end up fighting "insurgents" for decades unless the Iraqi population nuts up and starts taking care of themselves. It took us less time to defeat Nazi Germany and Japan than we've been occupying Iraq. For the 8 billion a month it costs us, think of what could be done to tighten border and port security here... as well as develop more abundant special ops forces which are really critical in taking on terrorist groups worldwide.


    I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    -It took us less time to defeat Nazi Germany and Japan than we've been occupying Iraq.

    Aren't we still occupying Germany? When was Germany "rebuilt"? 1989 after the wall came down?

    How long did it take for the Marshall plan to be sucessful? (I hope I have my history right.) I really don't know.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Quote Originally Posted by frontrangeclone View Post
    It's hard for us civilians in the US to base whether the surge is working or not... considering how stories can be slanted (either direction)... however, while Iraqi civilian deaths are down, US troop deaths are up, as the last 3 months have been one of the bloodiest spans in the entire war.

    here is what is going to happen... come september when the "surge" will be reviewed by Congress, Bush will say that there is mixed results... some successes, some failures, but we just need more time, and perhaps more troops, the check back with us, oh, say in the beginning of 2008. How much time are we willing to give? are we willing to implement the draft? that may change peoples opinions in a hurry....

    I just wish there was a clear definition of victory..... we could end up fighting "insurgents" for decades unless the Iraqi population nuts up and starts taking care of themselves. It took us less time to defeat Nazi Germany and Japan than we've been occupying Iraq. For the 8 billion a month it costs us, think of what could be done to tighten border and port security here... as well as develop more abundant special ops forces which are really critical in taking on terrorist groups worldwide.
    The nice thing about Germany and Japan is that they were completely and utterly defeated. We also took steps to ensure that, that we would never consider today.

    FYI- The eight billion would be a drop in the bucket to secure borders and ports. It's not doable. Eight trillion wouldn't ensure anything. It might take the chances of a breach from 4 in 10 to 3 in 10. That's why we are on the offensive.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incyte View Post
    Secrarian violence is down as well according to NBC news last night. Will it stay down? Who knows.

    I do believe the strategy is too "hold" these areas now that they are cleared. Under Rumsfield we were good at "clearing" but poor at "holding" and "building". He didn't think we had the troops to do it.
    Anything we do is sticking ten fingers and thumbs in a **** with a million holes. This just didn't work and can't work. We can't resolve conflict and hatreds that are a thousand years old. Let's just get out and use our resources more effectively against terrorists. Make it impossible for them to get funds, work hard on SE asia and their nutballs, encourage arab nations to crack down. Those are things we can do well and better.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incyte View Post
    Aren't we still occupying Germany? When was Germany "rebuilt"? 1989 after the wall came down?

    How long did it take for the Marshall plan to be sucessful? (I hope I have my history right.) I really don't know.
    But all that had less to do with "occupying" Germany, and more to do with containing the USSR.

    However, you could make that point in comparison to Iraq and our CURRENT problems with Iran.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    Honestly, I think they should take the Yugoslavian example, and divide it up into three countries, with equally shared revenue, per capita. Sunni, Shia and Kurd. It is only one country right now because it was arbitrarily set up after I believe world war I. Guarantee the sovereignty of each, and use our military to help man the border checkpoints until they are able to do it themselves.
    I really don't believe the partition option would have worked. What country would Baghdad be a part of?



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Quote Originally Posted by alaskaguy View Post
    I really don't believe the partition option would have worked. What country would Baghdad be a part of?
    That is a good question. I'm also not sure where religious shrines of the Shia/ Sunni are located either, and how workable that would be. However, Yugoslavia was an absolute mess before the division, and relatively calm since.



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    Re: Is the "surge" working?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclonepride View Post
    The nice thing about Germany and Japan is that they were completely and utterly defeated. We also took steps to ensure that, that we would never consider today.

    FYI- The eight billion would be a drop in the bucket to secure borders and ports. It's not doable. Eight trillion wouldn't ensure anything. It might take the chances of a breach from 4 in 10 to 3 in 10. That's why we are on the offensive.

    so we should just not do anything with the borders and ports and airports? just stay in Iraq? keep our national guard over there? (what happens when the next Katrina hits? or a quake?) I would have to think a trillion dollars could help somewhat in tightening up the porous points of entry into the US... of course nothing is for certain.

    One could say we are still "occupying" Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.. (wherever we have bases), but I don't think our troops are patrolling the streets of Munich or Yokohama.


    I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

    Thomas Jefferson, 1802

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